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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#161

Post by nitrogen »

ashah wrote: post #126
nitrogen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm working at a place that uses a simple app running on a Raspberry Pi to update a dashboard whenever a known Bluetooth MAC comes into the building, with no need to turn on discoverability or pair with the Pi.

flawed metrics buddy, bluetooth mac address is randomized.

Not on the iPhones and Android phones of the people whose names are consistently correctly displayed on the dashboard. The MAC address had to be entered into the dashboard software manually, but no interaction was required on the phone whatsoever.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#163

Post by Nikker »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #97
praseodym wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network. With the trend of providing 'free' wifi access within stores, making sure that users connect to that network is enough to continue tracking them.

> The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network. That is necessary to keep the gateway from having to issue a thousand ARP requests (one for every packet you send from a different MAC), but there is no reason why the MAC chosen to connect to the network couldn't change every time you disconnect and reconnect. That would at least prevent you from being tracked between visits to th…

True but wouldn't the landing pages of most of these services be able to document the OS, browser, resolution, type of device(tablet vs laptop and IOS vs android) and likely a lot of other stuff.

I can narrow down a huge list to a very short list using above information along with the probes being sent out co-related to the signal strength. Timing of each probe can also be leveraged in uniquely identifying,most probes are sent in interval from each device. Those probes that come in equal intervals are likely from the same source, leveraged against signal strength you can likely identify a small crowd. To take it even further you can calculate the signal as absorbed through the store to signal congestion and possibly other metrics.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#164

Post by baddox »

_greim_ wrote: post #31
shurcooL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing convinced you of its worth is irrational.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#165

Post by catfoods »

c1sc0 wrote: post #88
IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

This. If you have access to the developer sessions from WWDC14 I urge you to look at the HealthKit, CloudKit & TouchID stuff. "We take privacy very seriously" was a recurring theme and seeing it baked into the new APIs made me smile. Very cool & reassuring move.

I noticed this as well after watching several sessions. Definitely a good direction.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#166

Post by _greim_ »

baddox wrote: post #164
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing convinced you of its worth is irrational.

Listen to your sentence, once you factor out the internal contradictions (emphasis mine):

> What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing manipulated you into thinking it was worth buying is irrational.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#167

Post by goblin89 »

DanBC wrote: post #70
shurcooL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? To answer your question directly, one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. (There are other disadvantages and advantages, by listing one of them I don't exclude the existence of others, but I can't cover everything.)

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

> Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread.

You, me, perhaps: what about other buyers, many of whom don't come to the store with detailed checklists? Their experience involves a fair amount of in-store exploration. For them placing milk and loaf of bread far apart might arguably be beneficial, because it makes them go past all of that other stuff they may forget to buy otherwise. Indeed, I imagine such customers are also easier to upsell to and more prone to impulse purchases of products that yield better margins—and that's part of the shopping process they visit the store for. Alas, people seem to enjoy buying things.

In short, I wouldn't be so confident that a store with more ‘rational’ layout would score better in the eye of the customer, even all else equal.

Disclaimer: I don't work in this area of business and this is purely my speculation.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#168

Post by meepmorp »

elarkin wrote: post #153
userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

Without being too specific, you should assume that Large stores already do this. Any store claiming to have "in store wifi" is almost guaranteed to be tracking you through your mac address. The system that I'm familiar with only tracks where you're going. It didn't (as of a couple months ago) have any way of linking your mac back to a consumer profile.

I was in a shopping mall recently, where the free wifi required your name and an email address before letting you use it.

Fuck that.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#169

Post by baddox »

_greim_ wrote: post #166
baddox wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing convinced you of its worth is irrational.

Listen to your sentence, once you factor out the internal contradictions (emphasis mine): > What's bad or irrational about being manipulated by marketers and advertisers? I don't see how buying something because some marketing manipulated you into thinking it was worth buying is irrational.

Can you take a stab at answering the question?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#170

Post by djb_hackernews »

bbatsell wrote: post #14
qq66 wrote: post #2

This is Apple forcing the in-store analytics companies like Euclid to use iBeacon rather than WiFi. With the market share numbers the way they are, though, for all but the highest-end stores what Android does matters more.

I feel like this comment might give a mistaken impression, so I'd like to clarify. Simply rolling out iBeacons does not replicate the copious data that one can currently get by monitoring WiFi probe requests. iBeacons, as designed, broadcast packets at a set rate using Bluetooth LE, and devices scan for those broadcasts. There is no two-way communication, and no probe requests from client devices. In order for a comp…

> iBeacons, as currently designed, broadcast packets at a set rate using Bluetooth LE, and devices scan for those broadcasts.

It is possible that iBeacons will provide the copious amounts of data themselves, and this is the first step to that end, as the parent points out.

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