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Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

salon.com

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Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#91

It's a free market -- tuition keeps going up because you, your neighbors, and every other American, is willing to pay for it. Prices will keep going up until people are so strained that they're not willing or able to pay anymore.

> tuition keeps going up because you, your neighbors, and every other American, is willing to pay for it

The parents of international students, primarily from Asia, are also willing to pay for it. The US has recently jumped all out onto this income stream (since 2008), and if you look at how things went in countries that have been doing it much longer, like Australia, you'll realize it'll be quite a while before Asian parents aren't willing and able to pay US college tuition for their children anymore.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#92
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source is me attending university budget meetings, discussions with the provost, etc. University administrators are obviously not going to be saying this in public (exactly because of how it looks, as you note). If you think you're going to see the accounting books of a private university on such a sensitive topic, you may be waiting a while. But feel free to continue believing online columnists in the meantime;…

I don't want to disparage a new user on HN, but your account was created 2 hours ago as of this writing. Please, do continue to use this site, but to make such broad claims about insider access and then claim that you cannot provide sources does stretch the veracity of your statements. Thomas Frank at Salon has his 'spit-bio' stating: "Thomas Frank is a Salon politics and culture columnist. His many books include "Wh…

No worries, feel free to form your own opinion. I've been around the block quite a bit on HN to not mind criticism.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#93
post #36

I'm a professor at an ivy league university who has gotten some insight into the budgets. There's a few things that are often not reported in the media: 1) The tuition sticker price is going up, but the actual price paid remains about the same due to increasing financial aid given to students. 2) The largest cost driven in the past decade is partially due to a successful increase in recruiting+admitting underrepresen…

This comment is like a bad parody of the excuses in the article. 1) So are all the stats that say that students are paying more, and are graduating with more debt, lies? 2) Blaming poor people is the latest trend in elite apologias. Same with the real estate bubble, it's the poor people that blew up the economy! 3) Student orgs, TAs and tutors are a totally new thing that didn't exist before tuition exploded, oh wait…

As for 2)

But while nobody's publicly saying so, it is true that the (not really) "poor" homeowners are responsible for the 2001 crisis. The cause of the crisis was, after all, that >2% of homeowners (mostly poor ones) stopped paying their loans because (partly it was no longer in their financial interest to do so). Which cause banks to sell CDOs that were valued on the assumption that this would never happen. Which caused some banks to get stung with CDOs.

The great crime of the elite was to offer loans to people bigger than what they could reasonably pay back. Nobody forced anyone to take the money, or hid the fact that it needed to be paid back. Too large a percentage of people just didn't abide by contracts they signed.

And they failed to abide by those contracts for the exact same reason banks try to get out from under obligations : there were losing a little bit of money.

I don't think people are blaming the poor. People are blaming homeowners who overextended themselves, or simply walked away from their loan obligations. And this is justified. They caused the crisis. Yes they were pushed into it. Does that excuse it ? I don't know.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#94
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your comment - it's great to get some real insight here. #1 and #2 raise a lot of questions and I'd love to hammer it out a bit more. Total financial aid is increasing (#1), but that makes sense given that the number of low-income students is also increasing (#2). The better metric is financial aid per low-income student (not just per student, since that is also expected to increase given that low-income i…

#1 is essentially third-degree price discrimination. College tuition is effectively "sliding scale" with wealthiest students pay full sticker price and poor students paying little or nothing

You forget that most wealthy people do not have a "direct" income and have the ability to redirect tax obligations. So, like in Europe, most wealthy students have a very strong case that they're really poor : just look at their tax statements, nothing on there. Never mind the BMW.

(In Europe anyone who is a kid of a company director or some such who is paid mostly in options or company shares to a "management company" effectively earns nothing. Sometimes their income is a loan with the management company as collateral. This enables them to get a full scholarship financial aid for their kids university education)

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#95
Gee, I thought that the resolution of the issue was:

(1) Before 30 years ago or so, a student paid only about 1/3rd of what a college education really cost. The rest was from 'overhead' taken from research grants, gifts, endowment income (from gifts), government funding (say, state universities).

(2) Good students with little or no money got various forms of financial assistance -- scholarships, work-study, etc.

(3) Wealthy students still paid only the 1/3rd.

So, someone got a bright idea: Why should wealthy students pay only 1/3rd instead of 100%? So, why not let the 'list price' to the students be the full cost? Then wealthy students will pay the full cost and others will get 'scholarships' based on need and academic qualifications.

So, the 'list price' went from 1/3rd of the real cost to 100% of the real cost, that is, up by a factor of 3, that is, 300%. The rest of the increases were due to better prof salaries, higher AdFunk salaries and more AdFunks, better facilities, etc.

But if have a really good media 'story', why give an explanation that would end the suspense, interest, drama, sense of scandal, etc. and, thus, end the story? And lose the eyeballs and ad revenue? Gotta be kidding!

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#96

In my opinion, college is worthwhile ONLY if you attend a university that is worth the cost. In most situations, students attend a particular university wishing that it will guarantee them success at some point in their lives without researching the ranking, quality of education, etc. In terms of ROI, it is a safer option to attend a Top 50 university than a for-profit university nobody has ever heard of. The discuss…

You think university is about education. To an extent, of course, this is true. However, the reason "top" universities pay off better is not the quality of education. The difference in aptitude of students easily trumps the advantage an Ivy league university has over a state college.

The real value in the university is the sunk cost of education for everyone already in the workforce. Ivy leaguers control management of most companies, and choosing against Ivy leaguers means saying they are themselves ill-educated ... they don't. So higher up jobs are more available to people who've paid the same sunk costs as the hiring managers.

It's that simple.

This will fall flat on it's face if they really open up admissions.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#97
post #30

Democrats today worship education, while Republicans today worship the market, neither of which faith has brought us close to a solution. Extreme leftists cheerlead higher education under the belief that if you give the proles a leadership education, they'll eventually revolt and overthrow the capitalists. After all, the undergraduate experience was designed for aristocrats, and if people go from young aristocrat to…

What do Democrats have to do with "extreme leftists"? There is no remotely viable Communist party in the US, not even a Socialist party. Extreme leftists do not have any power in the US. People who don't want to go to college have always had the option of not going. The difficulty is when people want to go but it is not feasible for financial reasons. Some people think it is nice to help others do whatever it is they…

Welcome to the US, where parties that would be villified for being extreme-right in Europe are actually on the left side of the aisle, and the left side as it exists in Europe simply doesn't exist.

Welcome to the country where the major leftist party is actually arguably anti-union. In most areas it's actually quite a bit right-of-center, in economic cases it's extreme right.

If a rightist party in most European states proposed reducing a European national health insurance to the level of the ACA, they'd immediately be cordoned off and laughed out of parliament. They know this, and so it never happens.

I still find it absolutely incredible.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#98
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the veracity of the source to begin with. The account was created 2 hours ago as of this writing. Still, point taken, thank you.

Using my regular account would give away my identity which kind of defeats the purpose...

Ahh, understood now

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#99
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get rid of the government loans. I'm going to make an argument I imagine many here will disagree with: perhaps the solution to the cost problem is to have publicly financed post-secondary education? Imagine this: the US government tells colleges it will pay $N per semester on behalf of any student who meets certain qualifications to attend that college. Colleges would be free to refuse to accept this, but with the…

" it will pay $N per semester on behalf of any student who meets certain qualifications to attend that college" Well right off the top how do you define "qualifications". I mean if your answer is (and this is a question not a statement) "meets certain testing standards" or "belongs to certain clubs and does certain activities" you will almost certainly disadvantage certain students that might get accepted because the…

> Well right off the top how do you define "qualifications"

Well, I don't really know. I agree with you that standardized testing is not a good way to do this.

Perhaps a system where anybody can attend but the public tuition stops being paid for them if their GPA falls below some threshold? But then you get the problem of shoddy colleges popping up that accept everybody and give everybody good grades. I think restricting the public tuition to non-profit schools would help solve that problem, in addition to strict caps on salaries of different classes of university employees. As long as people don't see running a shoddy university as a way to make money for themselves, they'll probably stay away from it.

Re: Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition

#100
post #94
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 is essentially third-degree price discrimination. College tuition is effectively "sliding scale" with wealthiest students pay full sticker price and poor students paying little or nothing

You forget that most wealthy people do not have a "direct" income and have the ability to redirect tax obligations. So, like in Europe, most wealthy students have a very strong case that they're really poor : just look at their tax statements, nothing on there. Never mind the BMW. (In Europe anyone who is a kid of a company director or some such who is paid mostly in options or company shares to a "management company…

You seem to not know that assets, not just income, are used in the determination
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