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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#111

Post by mcintyre1994 »

awhitty wrote: post #64
wmf wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google probably also sees themselves as user-centered by providing advanced services for free.

I think that's the "easy way out," in a way. Sure, it's not easy to provide the services for free, but it also doesn't particularly excuse them. Like Netflix vs. YouTube. Netflix fights for your ability to stream HD videos comfortably because you pay for the service. YouTube crams a perfectly-buffered, crisp HD ad down your throat before leaving you with a video that might stutter or fail to load even at 480p. Sure,…

I've noticed on Youtube they seem to buffer really popular videos really well, things like Gangnam Style when it was being played probably to tens of thousands of simultaneous users were surprisingly good - I think they have some sort of really good buffered caching or something. I suspect they might do the same with adverts that they know will stay the same and know they will serve to many users.

The disconnect is there for many videos where a perfectly buffered ad precedes a slow buffering video or something, but they seem to use that technology on some user videos too I think - or something similar.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#113

Post by akira2501 »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #109
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

Serious question: are you sure you'd actually be happier? I like efficiency as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I'm looking forward to companies more efficiently marketing to me. Especially if it's going to be constant.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#114

Post by xrjn »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #109
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

I guess it comes down to a difference in acceptability of intrusive advertising. Personally, I am absolutely disgusted when adverts are tailored towards me (especially since I don't see them most of the time with Adblock).

Seeing tailored advertisements brings me a feeling of despair, in the sense that your personal privacy is being exchanged for money. It only serves as a sad reminder that you must actively fight to protect it, and that we, as consumers, are failing at it right now.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#115

Post by zmmmmm »

shurcooL wrote: post #22
LoganCale wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. It should be a problem for them.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

For me it is mostly about the involuntary nature of it. I actually don't mind myself, but I do mind not having the ability to turn that tracking off (well, without manually disabling Wifi all the time anyway) or in any way control or affect the profile it generates.

Interesting to compare to Google who tracks customers around the internet. Crucially, if you don't log in to a Google account you are only one 'clear cookies' away from erasing your profile (I wonder occasionally if Google reconstructs profiles across different cookie sessions or not ...). At least on that side, you have some control. You can't change your MAC address nearly so easily.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#116

Post by rahimnathwani »

akira2501 wrote: post #113
rahimnathwani wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

Serious question: are you sure you'd actually be happier? I like efficiency as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I'm looking forward to companies more efficiently marketing to me. Especially if it's going to be constant.

No, I'm not sure. However, I suspect we have some way to go before ad tech gets good enough to creep me out.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#117

Post by zmmmmm »

IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

On the other hand, they are also actively developing the ominously named 'iBeacon' functionality. A more cynical viewpoint would be that they are trying to sabotage any possible systems that would compete with their own proximity based marketing solution.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#118

Post by sliverstorm »

akira2501 wrote: post #113
rahimnathwani wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a flip side to this. Being less trackable means that any passive advertising or active marketing you do see is less tailored to your situation and needs. When I walk around I see many billboards advertising products for which I have no use (e.g. female hair care products). If tracking technology could replace those with things I actually might buy (even if male hair care products) then I would be a touch happ…

Serious question: are you sure you'd actually be happier? I like efficiency as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I'm looking forward to companies more efficiently marketing to me. Especially if it's going to be constant.

I have already started to notice ads targeted at me. Ads for niche outdoor gear companies that I patronize.

I can report that it has indeed made me happier, as compared to when the ads were "Click here, Millionth visitor, and win a prize!". The dragnet advertising is a constant assault on your intelligence.

It also helps that the targeted ads I am seeing are tasteful & well designed.

I adblock 90%+ of the time, but I let ads through on some websites.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#119

Post by Spooky23 »

shurcooL wrote: post #92
DanBC wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

You are assuming that the customer is you, the schlub with the iPhone, are the customer in mind here. It isn't -- product merchandising in stores isn't rocket science. Any decent retail manager handles this stuff just fine and Wal-Mart has been able to track merchandising effectiveness using the registers for like 25 years now.

The customer here is the product manufacturers and distributors, and the product is shelf space. In big box and department stores, strategic shelves like end caps and the area near the escalators are paid placements.

Ditto for the supermarket. Ever notice that in different chains, Coke or Pepsi is always either in the front or back of the store across locations? That's because they bid on the preferred location.

Retailers are focusing on stuff like this because most mass retailers have unsustainable business models and aren't making money at the core job - selling stuff to people.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#120

Post by lotsofpulp »

shurcooL wrote: post #92
DanBC wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

While I don't have evidence, I think it's reasonable to postulate that store A is able to offer the same products as store B at a lower price due to being able to offset it with the extra revenue earned from people having to walk across the store and buying additional products that they would not have otherwise. While you (and I) might value our time over saving 50 cents on a loaf of bread, a significant portion of the population would rather spend 50 cents less on a loaf of bread and be forced to walk across the store. For other people, the better experience might be saving 50 cents, whereas for you it's saving time.

Same thing with Google and TV commercials. For some people, privacy and security and saving time is a better experience, but for most, saving a few dollars here and there is a better experience.

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