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Why is there so much hate for .NET?

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Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#11

Post by YoAdrian »

Welcome to my world. The only reason that ASP was created and therefore .NET was because years ago, the Allaire brothers told Microsoft "no thanks" when they tried to purchase their programming language called ColdFusion. Since 1997, when I started developing with CF, I've heard nothing but derision no matter how well it can handle complex tasks with ease. Every few months, someone without a clue but a huge audience posts another "death of ColdFusion" article and here come all the Ruby/Node/PHP fanboys piling on the hate.

Never mind that ColdFusion runs on the JVM.

Never mind that ColdFusion 11 was released a few weeks ago.

Never mind that there are TWO open source CFML engines out there.

Never mind that ColdFusion 12 is already under development.

And I don't hate .NET at all. Or Rudy or Node (can't stand PHP, but that's another matter).

Guess what? It's all the SAME S--T, different SYNTAX.

You know which language I love the most? Whichever one someone is currently paying me to use.

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#13

Post by klibertp »

dottrap wrote: post #5

"Public Static Void" Rob Pike (Bell Labs, Plan 9, Google Go) gave this short speech at OSCON 2010 about what's wrong with programming languages, their thinking, and their recent direction, with a lot of focus on C++/Java/C#, and how Go was a response to that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE Apple Swift seems to share much of the thinking, and the huge enthusiasm for Swift this week suggests developers see…

But you do realise that .NET is not only C#? And that F# had many (maybe even most, but I didn't research enough to say this) features that Swift has?

(And, on the related note, that Swift has not even one (or maybe? as I said, I didn't do enough research yet) novel, unique feature which wouldn't be already explored and implemented in other languages.)

What you're saying is an equivalent of "there's many things wrong with JVM, for example lack of type inference".

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#14

Post by Rbatista »

I think .net is a great framework that is misunderstood.. I think every developer should dabble in .net MVC before working there way into rails.. because so much of rails is abstracted and .net is not you can learn a lot of things from working with this framework that would take you a lot longer on rails

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#15

Post by computerslol »

chc wrote: post #9

The Microsoft stack by and large has a very closed ecosystem. You can use it in a free environment, but that is very much not how people actually use it. The .NET ecosystem is huge, but it hardly ever touches the freer ecosystem most languages exist in nowadays. If you use .NET "on a fully free/OSS stack," you're more or less in the wilderness, because the other Microsoft stack people aren't doing what you're doing a…

I concur. It wasn't until I started working with an OSS guy that I realized how different (sometimes frustratingly so) the OSS mindset is.

I wont try to draw any conclusions here because I don't know how much of our personal conflicts are caused by our platform ethos, and how much is just personal; but I can say that the way we execute architecting and building novel solutions is completely different.

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#16

Post by chc »

Rbatista wrote: post #14

I think .net is a great framework that is misunderstood.. I think every developer should dabble in .net MVC before working there way into rails.. because so much of rails is abstracted and .net is not you can learn a lot of things from working with this framework that would take you a lot longer on rails

What does this mean?

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#17

Post by pztrick »

At a prior job, we developed in VS10 on a Windows network and deployed to a Mono/Apache stack. I spent a lot of time debugging glitches in the Mono implementation after pushing "working" code to the production's Mono stack, and then writing work-arounds in my code -- not writing features.

I might avoid this by developing solely on Linux (which wasn't an option at the job) ... but you still may paste in someone else's code written for the MSFT implementation that borks your project.

To chime in with chc, there is such a huge OSS presence on Linux with a wealth of useful libraries to tap into. I must save so much time leveraging useful OSS projects in my Python/Django projects. Thanks, internet.

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#18

Post by grexican »

klibertp wrote: post #13
dottrap wrote: post #5

"Public Static Void" Rob Pike (Bell Labs, Plan 9, Google Go) gave this short speech at OSCON 2010 about what's wrong with programming languages, their thinking, and their recent direction, with a lot of focus on C++/Java/C#, and how Go was a response to that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE Apple Swift seems to share much of the thinking, and the huge enthusiasm for Swift this week suggests developers see…

But you do realise that .NET is not only C#? And that F# had many (maybe even most, but I didn't research enough to say this) features that Swift has? (And, on the related note, that Swift has not even one (or maybe? as I said, I didn't do enough research yet) novel, unique feature which wouldn't be already explored and implemented in other languages.) What you're saying is an equivalent of "there's many things wrong…

This is a great point, and I think it's one of the most powerful things about .NET. You can compile most (many) other languages and use it all interchangeably. Build in one language, use in another.

Each language has its pros/cons, and depending on the project you're working on, you can pick which language is best for the task at hand.

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#19

Post by chc »

klibertp wrote: post #13
dottrap wrote: post #5

"Public Static Void" Rob Pike (Bell Labs, Plan 9, Google Go) gave this short speech at OSCON 2010 about what's wrong with programming languages, their thinking, and their recent direction, with a lot of focus on C++/Java/C#, and how Go was a response to that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE Apple Swift seems to share much of the thinking, and the huge enthusiasm for Swift this week suggests developers see…

But you do realise that .NET is not only C#? And that F# had many (maybe even most, but I didn't research enough to say this) features that Swift has? (And, on the related note, that Swift has not even one (or maybe? as I said, I didn't do enough research yet) novel, unique feature which wouldn't be already explored and implemented in other languages.) What you're saying is an equivalent of "there's many things wrong…

F# is really cool, but the fact that it isn't the primary .NET client language does show. For example, Swift's mandatory option types are fantastic, and they're so integral to the language that they get special syntax support. Meanwhile, F# has an option type, but non-F# code doesn't know anything about it, so any actual use of the system frameworks litters your code with unexploded null mines.

Re: Why is there so much hate for .NET?

#20

Post by dottrap »

klibertp wrote: post #13
dottrap wrote: post #5

"Public Static Void" Rob Pike (Bell Labs, Plan 9, Google Go) gave this short speech at OSCON 2010 about what's wrong with programming languages, their thinking, and their recent direction, with a lot of focus on C++/Java/C#, and how Go was a response to that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE Apple Swift seems to share much of the thinking, and the huge enthusiasm for Swift this week suggests developers see…

But you do realise that .NET is not only C#? And that F# had many (maybe even most, but I didn't research enough to say this) features that Swift has? (And, on the related note, that Swift has not even one (or maybe? as I said, I didn't do enough research yet) novel, unique feature which wouldn't be already explored and implemented in other languages.) What you're saying is an equivalent of "there's many things wrong…

This is addressed to. Not all languages compile cleanly to the CLR. Running in the VM has serious tradeoffs as well. Garbage collection is a serious problem for soft/hard real time apps. Understanding performance is difficult too because the VM may be doing stupid things behind your back and you can't directly control things like CPU cache locality with this many layers.

Porting the VM is also difficult. It is a really complicated piece of machinery, and if you are in truly cross platform environments, getting the VM up on new systems is a massive engineering challenge in by itself. Often these other environments are CPU and memory constrained too which isn't great for the .NET VM.

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