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Who Gets to Graduate?

nytimes.com

101–110 of 149 posts

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#101
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bummer: Vanessa called home, looking for reassurance. Her mother had always been so supportive, but now she sounded doubtful about whether Vanessa was really qualified to succeed at an elite school like the University of Texas. “Maybe you just weren’t meant to be there,” she said. “Maybe we should have sent you to a junior college first.” After reading the whole article, this is what really stuck with me. I…

Her mother was right. Maybe weak students should -- like in CA -- go to a two year college that is a stepping stone between high school and college, with more oversight and structure; finish their gen eds; and transfer. The diploma says the same thing after 4 years. And to be clear, it's not like Vanessa is a good student. fta: a month into the school year, Vanessa stumbled. She failed her first test in statistics, a…

In her class, she was 39th out of 559. She was in the 93rd percentile of the only group she could compare herself to. Prior to college, I would say she was a phenomenal student compared to her peers.

The point of the article is that low-income kids, despite being intelligent and doing well among their peers, have a hard time transitioning to college. Universities could wash their hands of the problem and just reject the poor kids and send them to two-year universities like you suggest, but they’re trying to solve the inequality without further exacerbating our income differences.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#102
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure parents are supposed to be encouraging no matter what. You are not supposed to encourage kids to waste years and get into debt if the kid can not finish. That being said, neither mother probably can evaluate Vanessas chances correctly, one failed course is not a catastrophe. Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could no…

> Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could not be good school. Her high school was definitely awful, but that's not evidence. I never studied for math tests either. The difference here is that she aced all her math tests without knowing math .

In other words, she wasn't being challenged at her skills of math (which is critical for learning). Since her class was catching up.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#103
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure parents are supposed to be encouraging no matter what. You are not supposed to encourage kids to waste years and get into debt if the kid can not finish. That being said, neither mother probably can evaluate Vanessas chances correctly, one failed course is not a catastrophe. Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could no…

> Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could not be good school. Her high school was definitely awful, but that's not evidence. I never studied for math tests either. The difference here is that she aced all her math tests without knowing math .

> The difference here is that she aced all her math tests without knowing math.

Yeah, which can mean she was the best in her class, even though they are all very bad at maths.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#104
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her mother was right. Maybe weak students should -- like in CA -- go to a two year college that is a stepping stone between high school and college, with more oversight and structure; finish their gen eds; and transfer. The diploma says the same thing after 4 years. And to be clear, it's not like Vanessa is a good student. fta: a month into the school year, Vanessa stumbled. She failed her first test in statistics, a…

In her class, she was 39th out of 559. She was in the 93rd percentile of the only group she could compare herself to. Prior to college, I would say she was a phenomenal student compared to her peers. The point of the article is that low-income kids, despite being intelligent and doing well among their peers, have a hard time transitioning to college. Universities could wash their hands of the problem and just reject…

>I would say she was a phenomenal student compared to her peers.

Top 7 percent in a group that small isn't "phenomenal" by the normal definition of the word.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support…

Quick fact check: she's not smart. She's smart only in comparison to the rest of her high school, and the article points out she was admitted under UT's affirmative action program, wherein (for Austin) if you outperform 93% of your high school classmates, they let you in. But the article also points out that she scored the equivalent of a 1030 on the SAT. She's barely above average for the ACT-taking population of Te…

That might just mean that her school failed her. It sounds like she wasn't taught how to learn, and that she wasn't challenged with advanced topics.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick fact check: she's not smart. She's smart only in comparison to the rest of her high school, and the article points out she was admitted under UT's affirmative action program, wherein (for Austin) if you outperform 93% of your high school classmates, they let you in. But the article also points out that she scored the equivalent of a 1030 on the SAT. She's barely above average for the ACT-taking population of Te…

The article says she's getting A's and B's in her freshman chemistry course at UT. What else does she have to do to meet your criteria for "smart?"

Be more than 'barely above average' on the ACT.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#107
post #86
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even that any person is better than another... Classes at elite public schools like Berkeley, UCLA, UMich, etc. are more demanding than at any but a few private colleges.

And it isn't really fair to paint with even this broad a brush. The fact is that large public universities generally have a broader charter than small, elite private schools. This is a factor of how they're governed on the one hand (things like mandating x% of students are admitted from in-state, or enforcing affirmative action), and the fact that they [usually] have to provide a reasonably comprehensive set of study…

> not as good as what she received

Sounds more like a reflection of the difference in studied topics.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support…

She is really not all that smart, nursing is something you would learn at a vocational school in other countries and I can't imagine the statistics they had to learn in the first year were harder than what you usually would learn in an advanced high school class. Being smart would mean that you are able to absorb new material quickly, which she obviously failed to do.

nursing has changed.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#109
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read TFA? It's not talking about "dramatically underqualified" students. > If you compare college students with the same standardized-test scores who come from different family backgrounds, you find that their educational outcomes reflect their parents’ income, not their test scores.

The article is talking about supporting students who are admitted to a flagship school in their affirmative-action program despite being below the 25th percentile for students at that school. It specifically calls them out as being in the bottom quartile. It lists the human-interest protagonist's appallingly low standardized test scores. What more do you want here? According to http://www.parchment.com/c/college/coll…

It's an endemic problem - I heard that even at Ivy league schools nearly a quarter of the students are now below the 25th percentile.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#110
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure parents are supposed to be encouraging no matter what. You are not supposed to encourage kids to waste years and get into debt if the kid can not finish. That being said, neither mother probably can evaluate Vanessas chances correctly, one failed course is not a catastrophe. Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could no…

> Her high school apparently suxed: "she never had to study for math tests; she aced them all without really trying." - that could not be good school. Her high school was definitely awful, but that's not evidence. I never studied for math tests either. The difference here is that she aced all her math tests without knowing math .

In that case, your high school math was too easy for you too :). If you can learn it without studying, then it is too little no matter how talented you are.
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