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Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

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Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

If you want to play devil's advocate then let's advocate for all the devils. If Comcast wants to offer their customers video over a traditional cable network, they pay content providers. Why should the Internet be different? Shouldn't ISPs be paying people who provide the content their customers are buying?

If you consider everything on the Internet to be content, then would that require ISPs to be paying every website that they load? They would, of course, pass that cost along to us with whatever markup they want. Enjoy your $24.99/month Netflix, delivered to you by Time Warner Cable! Want to use reddit too? That's another $3.99/month, but look at all those grumpy cats you get for that! Facebook is another $4.99/month, but you can't put a price on virtual friendship, right? :)

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#142
post #46

Awesome response to the C&D, via spokesman Jonathan Friedland: "This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with the ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion."

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

My ISP has provided 100 Mbps for years, and has recently brought 1 Gbps fiber. They've never complained about video services or torrents eating away their bandwidth. Guess why? Because when you're able to provide 100-1000 Mbps to each and every customer, the ~5 Mbps required for Netflix streaming is nothing.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

> is it really fair to treat them like every other company? Interesting question. I guess from my perspective I buy broadband from AT&T and they tell me under no uncertain terms that I have a cap at x amount of gigabytes. As a customer I expect to use all of that. >Guilt tripping Verizon into adding more routers is a major net positive to Netflix's business. As a customer it shocks me they aren't doing so. Yesterday…

I'll reiterate the problem carriers face that I stated earlier.

Customer revenue is decreasing and because the market is saturated they cannot add enough customers to combat the atrophy of revenue. As shareholders expect growth every year, ISPs are forced to look for new revenue streams.

If you don't think they should be doing this as a private company, reclassify them as a utility. Otherwise shareholder demand is what gets satisfied.

Carriers have very specific equipment amortization patterns in their heads and they are financial models that banks accept. If carriers have to change their amortization patterns (more routers, faster) they have to change their financing which damages the value of the stock.

Sure we can do this, but what does "fair" mean here? I'm trying to say that the argument is not as black and white as people make it out to be.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#144
post #46

Awesome response to the C&D, via spokesman Jonathan Friedland: "This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with the ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion."

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

>If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company?

I don't see why not. I think it might make more sense to think of it as streaming video, the category of goods, rather than Netflix, the company. So 35% of global internet traffic is people streaming videos. And who cares that it's video; from Comcast's or Verizon's perspective, it's just an awful lot of bytes. So if the issue is the amount of traffic, it's just Verizon complaining that we're using too much bandwidth (yes, us; we're the ones watching Netflix). I get that's expensive to deliver all those bytes to my home, but that's what precisely what I'm paying for. That a huge number of those bytes comes from the same originator shouldn't enter into it. It's just a site on the internet.

EDIT: Also, I wanted to add, that all of the traffic comes from the same source actually helps Verizon from a practical standpoint, since it can solve a lot of it with only a small number of interconnects. Compare to a more fragmented market, where Verizon might have to make specific peering provisions for a bunch of different 5%-market-share content providers to fulfill its customer obligations.

> Guilt tripping Verizon into adding more routers is a major net positive to Netflix's business.

All sorts of businesses benefit from the ecosystem of other businesses around them. If I run a store in rural Iowa and Acme Co opens a huge factory there, then I stand to make a bunch of money from all these newly employed customers. Should I subsidize Acme? [1] After all, hiring people is expensive. If I open a hardware store near a bunch of planned construction, should I pay those real estate developers? You can expand this to the whole economy being basically just a set of interdependent positive externalities. Maybe Verizon should pay Netflix for making their service more valuable?

Or we can use the simpler model, in which you get to charge your customers. Verizon charges us for delivering the content we request. Netflix charges us for the content itself. Cogent (or whomever) charges Netflix for its bandwidth. Everything works.

> They're not utilities and have a profit motive, right?

They could charge more, and they could even charge per unit bandwidth (or tiered bandwidth) if they wanted. "My business isn't working that well" is not a good excuse to hold your subscribers hostage. You could equally use "Wall Street demands growth!" to defend Comcast's new practice of robbing banks.

Imagine I bought a popular TV set in 1980 to watch broadcast content, but after I got it home, the TV maker remotely activated a previously undisclosed filter that would only show certain channels. Then they went to ABC, NBC, and FOX and said, "So guys, you want your content seen? My margins on these TVs keep going down, so somebody's gotta pay." Not cool, right?

EDIT: Another point, probably the most important. The "problem" here is ridiculous: it's that demand for Verizon's product (i.e. internet access for end-users) is increasing a lot because it is becoming more useful to its customers. That's what every business wants! "We sell internet access and everyone is now using so much more internet! Whatever shall we do?" The idea that Verizon is up against some sort of profitability wall because of how popular its product is becoming and thus needs to charge the companies responsible for that increased popularity...it's simply not credible. Not sure why I didn't think of this point earlier.

Edit: s/Comcast/Verizon, since that's specifically who we're talking about.

[1] This actually does happen in the form of tax incentives for companies opening factories. It's a bit messed up.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of us had to bluff our way through the first gatekeeper on tech support like this? Tech: "Could you please unplug your computer for 20 seconds and restart it?" Me: "Okay. . Okay, it's back" Or this gem? Tech: "What browser are you using?" Me: " Internet Explorer 6".

I just want to point out that Teksavvy have in my experience proven to be FANTASTIC at helping with linux internet-related problems. I now refuse to subscribe to any ISP who does not offer Linux support, and will in fact check to make sure that Teksavvy (or an equivalent as described above) is available in an area before moving to it. Full Disclosure, I am a Teksavvy customer but not a Teksavvy employee.

Must be nice to have a choice of ISPs...

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

> is it really fair to treat them like every other company? Interesting question. I guess from my perspective I buy broadband from AT&T and they tell me under no uncertain terms that I have a cap at x amount of gigabytes. As a customer I expect to use all of that. >Guilt tripping Verizon into adding more routers is a major net positive to Netflix's business. As a customer it shocks me they aren't doing so. Yesterday…

You only really pay AT&T for one end of the pipe though. If your end can deliver 100Mbit/s, how responsible are they for the other end of the pipe? Have they met their commitment?

This is the biggest part I think people are missing- they are not thinking about the upstream end of the pipe. Maybe it's the same story even when you do consider the upstream, but I'd at least like people to acknowledge that aspect.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#148
post #46

Awesome response to the C&D, via spokesman Jonathan Friedland: "This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with the ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion."

Playing Devil's advocate here for a second: If Netflix is 35% of global internet traffic at peak capacity (as per the Akamai CEO's comments at a number of events), is it really fair to treat them like every other company? That is to say, if Netflix is really the sole driver of Network upgrades, why does Verizon have to subsidize their costs of business? I'm not taking the stance that this is correct, only querying as…

Yes, because I am paying Verizon to connect me to Netflix. If Netflix's traffic is so high, it's because lots of people want to pay Verizon to connect them to Netflix. If Netflix is so expensive, Verizon would need to raise their prices for customers; possibly offering low-bandwidth customers lower prices. If Verizon wants to give me free internet access, then it would make perfect sense to charge Netflix to deliver to me. Otherwise, Netflix paying large sums to Verizon is only going to ensure that we won't get alternatives to Netflix, because the barrier to entry will be too high for smaller startups. And if bandwidth is the issue, do you think Verizon should pay companies it primarily uploads, but not downloads, to (such as cloud hosting services)?

Personally, I'd really love to see Netflix start using encrypted peer-to-peer to distribute the bandwidth. See if Verizon would be willing to cripple all VPN and HTTPS users to try and shake down Netflix.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#149
post #31

This is a genius move. It's exactly what needs to happen to get consumers to realize that it's their ISP fucking them over, not Netflix. The average joe isn't outraged enough about net neutrality. If only they'd start doing this to other known bad actors coughcomcastcough , that might just be what the doctor ordered. I wonder why they ponied up the money to the protection rackets first, and only then started pointing…

It could be so that the ISP can't claim "if you had peered with us, we wouldn't be so congested" or some other BS.

Sure, but Netflix did "peer" with Verizon (read: put their servers on the Verizon network). At this point, anything happening is either Netflix's fault (for not buying enough bandwidth) or Verizon's fault (for having a congested internal network), and we don't have enough information to know which.

Could also be that the agreement had an anti-defamation clause, and Verizon was counting on that to avoid upgrading their internal network.

Re: Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ISP's job, as a private company, is to maximize shareholder value. The circuit consumers are sold is a "best-effort" connection in stark contrast to, say, a T1, which is a dedicated circuit. It's also very hard to prove that Verizon is throttling, versus, say, simply physically underprovisioning the connection. With respect to public money, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The crux of the Net Neutrality de…

Oh no, not the "maximising shareholder value" argument again! This argument has three fundamental problems. First, it is difficult to tell what would "maximise shareholder value". Second, it misses the fact that something that could "maximise shareholder value" on short term could very well minimise "shareholder value" on long term (or the other way around). Third, and this is the biggest one, people involved in a pr…

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed.

3) All of the big Telcos are public, but your point stands.

To be explicit, I wholeheartedly agree with you about humans making pseudo-random decisions. I'm trying to explain the dynamics of the Telco position, from their vantage point because I think it helps the discussion to view things from other angles.

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