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The day I left my son in the car

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Re: The day I left my son in the car

#211

Post by tptacek »

mcv wrote: post #205
imgabe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article states that the car had child locks, which were used, so the doors could only be opened from the outside. Furthermore, the kid specifically wanted to go on the trip in the first place so he could sit in the car and play with the iPad, which he was happily doing. It's not impossible that in the space of five minutes the kid could get bored of the iPad, unbuckle the car seat, and figure out how to disable t…

I disagree that the child locks make it safer. By locking it up, the child is unable to take care of itself. If anything happens, it's stuck. If I can't trust the child to make its own judgments about how to behave in and around the car (which is indeed unlikely with a 4 year old), then I shouldn't leave it alone in the car at all. I'm all for letting children roam free and find their own way. I'm not a fan of lockin…

You're all for letting four year olds roam free in parking lots?

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#212

Post by tptacek »

Domenic_S wrote: post #199
tptacek wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You totally disagree that it's unsafe to leave a four year old alone in a parked car?

I don't, but that's not what I, the article, or your OP were really talking about. What I disagree with is this statement/attitude: > I've flagged down a cop seeing a kid alone in a car, and would do it again. The interesting and proper question isn't whether it's unsafe to leave a four year old alone in a parked car, it's whether leaving a four year old alone in a parked car warrants involvement from the State -- pa…

Oh, you were making a political point. Now I get it.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#213

Post by mcv »

tptacek wrote: post #209
mcv wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This other parent let their nine-year-old ride the subway by themselves." Well, I think that's a bad call too, but who cares? Whether that's a bad call depends on the child and the nature of the subway. When I was 12, I travelled by train through the country for 4 days, planning my own journeys, visiting musea and relatives. Not every 12 year old would be able to do that responsibly, but I was sure I could do that…

The parent we're talking about here famously let their 9 year old ride the MTA anywhere in NYC , kicking it off by dropping her kid off at Bloomingdales and then assuming he'd eventually make it home (which involved a bus transfer).

Did it work?

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#214

Post by mcv »

tptacek wrote: post #211
mcv wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that the child locks make it safer. By locking it up, the child is unable to take care of itself. If anything happens, it's stuck. If I can't trust the child to make its own judgments about how to behave in and around the car (which is indeed unlikely with a 4 year old), then I shouldn't leave it alone in the car at all. I'm all for letting children roam free and find their own way. I'm not a fan of lockin…

You're all for letting four year olds roam free in parking lots?

Depending on the parking lot. Of course it's not a suitable place for kids, but as long as he knows to watch out for traffic, and the parking lot is fairly open, it's better than locking him up. If it's a big and crowded parking lot, I'm more worried about him getting lost than getting run over.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#215

Post by leorocky »

tptacek wrote: post #70

I've flagged down a cop seeing a kid alone in a car, and would do it again. Should people who leave their toddlers in cars be prosecuted criminally? That's a complicated question. In almost every reasonable case the answer is probably "no". But this article doesn't really grapple with that question. Instead, it's a stew of rationalization and misdirection. It is literally an argument for leaving kids alone in cars .…

Would you flag down a cop even if you could talk to the parent instead? Why?

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#216

Post by cpach »

tptacek wrote: post #210
GuiA wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grew up in France in the 90s, in a small upper middle class town. My mother definitely left me alone in the car while she was running errands many, many times (which I liked because it meant I could just read my book, which is all I cared about as a kid). My parents also let me walk back and forth to the library (half a mile or so away) on my own fairly early on. When we lived in the US for 2 years (pre 9/11), my par…

One of your stated reasons for leaving the US when you have kids is that the US is hostile to adults assaulting children? Because that's the circumstance you described with your father and the kid from school.

Um, what?

scolding != assaulting, no?

But of course it might have been better if the kids’ parents took up the matter between them.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#217

Post by greedo »

tptacek wrote: post #93
peterwwillis wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She wasn't "grappling", she was retelling what was probably the most emotionally trying experience of her entire life. Cut her some slack maybe?

She wrote an article that is in large part a defense of leaving toddlers alone in parked cars. That was her choice. It is reasonable to criticize an article on its own terms.

Words matter. A four year old, unless developmentally disabled, is not a toddler... A toddler implies someone who "toddles" as if at a very early age, and leads readers to infer that the child was closer to 2 than four. (Unless my daughter was precocious when she was walking at 11 months.)

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#218

Post by tptacek »

cpach wrote: post #216
tptacek wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of your stated reasons for leaving the US when you have kids is that the US is hostile to adults assaulting children? Because that's the circumstance you described with your father and the kid from school.

Um, what? scolding != assaulting, no? But of course it might have been better if the kids’ parents took up the matter between them.

I chose my words carefully. When an adult confronts a child and terrifies them verbally, that is assault. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Because it is so easy for an adult to create a credible fear of violence in a child, it is very poor judgement for adults to directly confront children.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#219

Post by greedo »

Osiris wrote: post #104

I, personally, don't believe that children should ever be left alone in a car, but I'm not sure where the legal line should be drawn. On one extreme, it would only be criminal if a child dies under your care, which would be criminally negligent homicide or something similar. On the other, we can't run in to drop a movie off at RedBox without getting 3 kids out of the car. I wish people in positions of authority were…

Unfortunately, people in positions of authority have no incentive to apply wisdom and common sense. Imagine if they ignore this report, and something bad happened to the child? They'd be crucified. It's far easier to take the report, do the minimal amount of investigation required by policy, and then let a prosecutor apply their discretion as to whether charges are pressed.

The same perverse incentives apply to the prosecutor as well. It's no skin off his back to charge the mother, and he can always say "it's for the children!" if queried about it. But should a child die, when both the police and prosecutor could have done something, is something our society won't allow.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#220

Post by shintakezou »

anigbrowl wrote: post #157
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article appears to indicate that the person capturing video saw the lady leave and return. It is not clear if the video was rolling the entire time but certainly as the video-taker was giving the video to the police, they may have mentioned that the same person who left the car also returned. I don't see why the police would be more worried about an abduction in this situation than in any other "person with child…

Because the person in the video doesn't match the description of the registered owner of the car as recorded on their driving license. Think about it.

«Because the person in the video doesn't match the description of the registered owner of the car as recorded on their driving license. Think about it.»

First, you have to arrive to the cops checking for that. Before that, you must imagine the "good" samaritan, who hasn't seen any driving license and knows nothing about the minivan, speculating about who was that woman leaving and then coming back to the minivan.

But it's not the reason he or she has called the police and the police, at the moment they reached the house of the parents of the woman, they knew the latter was none but the daughter of the owner of the minivan.

Case closed... Except for the charge of having contributed to the delinquency of a minor. By the way, the good samaritan can be charged of the same crime since the video proved that, since even if he could have "caught" the criminal mom in the instant he was starting her criminal act and thus he could have "saved" the child, he preferred keep filming... so, if there was an actual crime, it would have been too late.

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