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Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

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Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#61

Post by scotty79 »

fancyketchup wrote: post #57
lotsofmangos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read article. The smelter they are using is hydroelectric and the 1000 miles air battery range is only used on long journeys as mostly the car runs on lithium.

I think... you might want to read up on aluminum smelting, which converts alumina (Al2O3) into aluminum (Al). The process involves passing a large current between two graphite (carbon) electrodes via the alumina. Al2O3 + carbon => Al + CO2 Edit: I can only guess that the down votes are for not providing a source? Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting It doesn't matter if the smelter runs on fai…

It seems that you can significantly reduce carbon emissions of aluminum smelting if you use energy source that does not emit carbon dioxide.

From http://aluminium.org.au/climate-change/smelting-greenhouse-p...

The smelting of aluminium is a very energy intensive process – and over 80 per cent of smelting greenhouse gas emissions are indirect (electricity-related) emissions. The remaining emissions come from direct (on-site) emissions plus the emissions associated with the production of alumina.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#63

Post by Scoundreller »

jff wrote: post #32
dojomouse wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting. Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though. It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity…

This particular smelter uses hydroelectric power, mentioned in the article.

Though you might want to read here: http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2013/D43129.htm for a bit of background on the price paid for such electricity.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#64

Post by mikeash »

pkulak wrote: post #56
pocketstar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but then you are hauling around an extra 100kg of unused batteries for 95% of your trips.

The BMW i3 Rex carries around about that weight right now for it's gas generator, plus tank, and it will only go 50 miles or so once the battery runs down! Since it seems to be selling just fine, people are obviously willing to spend weight to get range. Think how much lighter the Volt would be with no gasoline engine! And they also don't mention if you can choose how much to lug around. Maybe I think I'll only need…

I figured that 50 miles for the BMW had to be wrong, it's way too small, but I looked it up and it's about right. Officially it's more like 70 miles, but that's still ridiculously small. I have to really wonder what the point of that option is. I get it for the Volt, you're pure electric for most of your trips, but you have gas range when you need it. But here, you still have typical crappy pure electric range, but with all the complexity of a hybrid system, and all the cost of burning gasoline for the last half of it. Why would anyone buy this?

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#65

Post by mikeash »

esbonsa wrote: post #59
marvin wrote: post #41

I hate being a naysayer - this is cool technology - but the energy economics won't work out for metal-air batteries if they're used as the main power source. Recharging a metal-air battery is grossly inefficient, and a big part of the advantage with electric cars is that they use less energy in every step of the process except initial manufacturing. This means that the general economics of metal-air batteries will no…

"... and a big part of the advantage with electric cars is that they use less energy in every step of the process except initial manufacturing." The most important part for me for electric cars is the simpler power-train system which is less likely to break... which is why i would never buy an hybrid that has both systems.

Oddly, hybrids seem to be really reliable, despite the additional stuff to break. Priuses get top marks for reliability. I'm not sure why, but I imagine it comes down to the electric stuff being extremely reliable due to the nature of the beast, and the gasoline end being treated more nicely (more consistent RPMs and throttle settings, no idling, not being used at all for a substantial fraction of your miles) more than compensates for the tiny increase in potential failures from adding the electric system. Also consider that there is essentially no transmission in the more advanced hybrids, which removes a potentially expensive breakage that regular gas cars are subject to.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#67

Post by abalone »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #50
abalone wrote: post #39

Doesn't aluminum smelting use crazy amounts of electricity and emit significant greenhouse gases? So not only would we be doing that, we'd also have to ship these 220 lb modules back to the smelters every 1,000 miles? Is there anybody advocating for this besides aluminum smelters?

Read article. The smelter they are using is hydroelectric and the 1000 miles air battery range is only used on long journeys as mostly the car runs on lithium.

I read the article. Hydroelectric is not free -- to scale up to powering the automotive industry requires more dams with massive ecological impact -- and you left out the part out greenhouse gases and the transportation of heavy batteries over hundreds or thousands of miles per recharge.

1K miles could be easily used up on a couple roundtrips. That's not even 2 roundtrips between SF and LA.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#68

Post by patrickg_zill »

abalone wrote: post #39

Doesn't aluminum smelting use crazy amounts of electricity and emit significant greenhouse gases? So not only would we be doing that, we'd also have to ship these 220 lb modules back to the smelters every 1,000 miles? Is there anybody advocating for this besides aluminum smelters?

Aluminum does use a lot of electricity. The first time; that is why recycling aluminum which is cheap, very easy to do, and does not require much power, is such a win.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#69

Post by abalone »

scotty79 wrote: post #61
fancyketchup wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think... you might want to read up on aluminum smelting, which converts alumina (Al2O3) into aluminum (Al). The process involves passing a large current between two graphite (carbon) electrodes via the alumina. Al2O3 + carbon => Al + CO2 Edit: I can only guess that the down votes are for not providing a source? Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting It doesn't matter if the smelter runs on fai…

It seems that you can significantly reduce carbon emissions of aluminum smelting if you use energy source that does not emit carbon dioxide. From http://aluminium.org.au/climate-change/smelting-greenhouse-p... The smelting of aluminium is a very energy intensive process – and over 80 per cent of smelting greenhouse gas emissions are indirect (electricity-related) emissions. The remaining emissions come from direct (o…

That's true but the direct emissions are still very substantial. It only seems small in comparison because smelting uses so much electricity to begin with.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#70

Post by abalone »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #68
abalone wrote: post #39

Doesn't aluminum smelting use crazy amounts of electricity and emit significant greenhouse gases? So not only would we be doing that, we'd also have to ship these 220 lb modules back to the smelters every 1,000 miles? Is there anybody advocating for this besides aluminum smelters?

Aluminum does use a lot of electricity. The first time; that is why recycling aluminum which is cheap, very easy to do, and does not require much power, is such a win.

Are you suggesting "recharging" these batteries happens via recycling? That is not true. Aluminum is converted to alumina via the reaction and they need to be resmelted, just like the first time.
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