The day I left my son in the car • Hacker News Board

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#151

Post by darklajid » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 9:49 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #114

darklajid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons not to .. and reasons to to exactly that. The decision is not yours, not ours. It's the parent's. Like everything else about the daily life of the kid. That argument contains no value. Of course there are reasons that one might not do that. Loop/Recur to line 1.

That's not much help for kids who do have abusive or neglectful parents, is it? They're citizens too and if they're stuck in a dangerous situation they're entitled to the same level of protection as any other member of society. there's a middle ground between the state as inflexible guardian and complete parental sovereignty.

Fine. Abused kids need help. There, I said it. It's nothing new and not related to the example at hand, but yeah, we found some common ground.

The state has laws and agencies to interfere and check (Disclaimer: I've no clue about the US of A here, but I assume it's not too far off from what I know). But that's not related to the action(s) we discuss. Are we missing a part of the picture? Certainly. Is the partial picture scary? Yes.

The adversaries in the story didn't act to protect the kid. They acted in a completely crazy fashion. There's so many things wrong with this story, I cannot even begin to imagine how someone would defend the side of the cops here..

One (out of far too many) questions: If this mother is utterly incapable, if a lawyer actually can make the point that she might lose her kid if she's not complying: Why does it take 10 month to proceed? I'd say that someone with a little ambition can kill a kid in less time than that...

There's not One. Single. Point. in that article that makes sense, on the side of law enforcement. Zero. The only potential reason to discuss why this might not be so far removed from reality that everyone involved should be ordered to take a drug test is that the article might be lying. If that is not the case ... there is no case.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#152

Post by jongraehl » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 9:53 PM UTC

jbellis wrote: post #20

mcphilip wrote: post #13

While it's tough to criticize the decision to leave a child in the car for a few minutes -- happened to me all the time as a child -- I'm forever scarred by seeing a dead child pulled out of a car in the office complex next to mine [1]. The dad was bashing his head against a tree trying to knock himself unconscious because he was so overcome with grief. Officers were trying to restrain him when his wife showed up and…

The very big difference is that child-bakes-in-the-car heat deaths are not because Dad left the kids in the car while he ran in to the store for a few minutes, but because Dad forgot the kid was in the car at all. http://www.parenting.com/article/tragedy-in-the-backseat-hot...

I was always allowed and encouraged to open doors+windows while waiting in a car as a child.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#153

Post by darklajid » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 9:57 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #67

baddox wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the father became unconscious, had a stroke or a heart attack, etc. while driving or doing anything with the child away from other people, the child could die.

Yes, driving to the store is considerably more dangerous for the child (even if it's in correctly fitted car seat (and many children are not)) than being left for a few minutes in the car. Still, leaving the child alone leaves them open to more risk than taking them out of the car. This parent was not buying anything important - just headphones for a child - and they took the wasy options by i) taking child to shops…

»I don't criticise other people's parenting because I am particularly lucky with my son but the idea of leaving my nearly-four-yo son unaccompanied (out of eyesight) fills me with cold fear.«

The thing is:

1) You do. The post says "She was lazy"¹. That's criticizing.

2) Your pov is noted and fine. You're probably a good parent. But what works for you isn't transferable to other parents and kids. And those parents will make decisions that wouldn't work/make sense for you and your kid. I love that my not-yet-two son disappears and plays in hidden corners. He's probably longer out of my (and my wife's) sight than the boy in that car was, albeit in our apartment. Cold fear sounds nasty. I understand that to a point, but for this particular parent that wouldn't work/would be unhealthy.

We're different. Projecting one's idea about child care is different from laws about child care.

1: Blame reading comprehension skills on my English teacher

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#154

Post by jack-r-abbit » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:02 PM UTC

My dad used to drag us around in the snow behind his truck as we laid on an upside down car hood tethered to the truck with a rope. It was a prefect 3-person toboggan. That was in the 70s. No one cared.

Just this week a woman got media blasted for having her infant pulled down the church aisle on her wedding dress train. Now I find that a bit tacky as far as weddings go but I can't imagine that child was in any more danger than I was while speeding down a dirt road on an overturned hood.

Times have changed.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#155

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:04 PM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #137

anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- before cops arrived, kid was gone and obviously safe with the parent The second half of your premise contains two completely unwarranted assumptions. How exactly were the police supposed to know the now-departed child was a) safe and b) with his parent? Recall that the Mom who wrote the piece was driving a vehicle that wasn't registered to her and so therefore didn't match the description on the registered owners'…

- Track down the car owner - Call about the kid - (Optional) Visit owner (grandparents) in person and take an official statement - Drop the case And what is the danger we're protecting the child against here? People seem to like the 'baked in car' setup. You seem to fancy the 'kidnapped wholesale with car' idea? I mean - your neighbor is taking the kid to the car, and gets back in (probably forgot a thing). 30 sec la…

Again, the situation with my neighbor (someone I know well enough to trust my kid with) is completely different from that of seeing a stranger leaving a kid in a car in a shopping mall parking lot. The fact that you need to change the facts of the situation to make your point should be a clue to the inherent weakness of your argument.

Most likely the person who called the police was thinking about the risk of heat (even if the weather didn't seem to justify it, but the fact is it's very unusual for a parent to leave a kid in car in the US these days. From the police point of view, the confusion about the identity of the car owner and driver is enough to warrant further investigation. When the police hear from the grandparents that the child is inaccessible because the Mom got onto a plane and flew home, that's probably true but they don't know for sure - after all that's the sort of story people give out when they abduct children in custody battles during ugly divorces. It's the police's job to put the welfare of the child first in ambiguous situations like that.

Me, I wouldn't have prosecuted once the full facts came out, but on the other hand a statewide missing child alert uses up a bunch of police resources and that's not free, so the prosecutor may have that demanding some community service in return was justified. I can't tell what state the writer lives in or exactly when this happened, so it would be worth considering those contexts as well.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#156

Post by IanDrake » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:05 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #127

IanDrake wrote: post #44

Seriously, this is my number one reason for not having kids. For the younger crowd who may not understand, I was born in '77: - I rode in the back hatch (no seats) of my dad's corvette until I was 8, cops would wave to us. - At 6 I could ride my bike around pretty much anywhere I wanted, but wasn't allowed to cross rt6 (which I didn't, though no one checked). - Left in the car in parking lots for up to an hour. - Arr…

Survivorship bias. I too rode in the boot of the car, but presumably some other kids did that and died in an accident slamming in to back of their parent's heads and the windscreen when the car had to break suddenly. Or maybe they got crushed when a lorry rode in to the back of them.

Yeah, I knew kids that had dogs growing up. We all think it's safe, but alas, family dogs kill children. I guess we all suffer from that survivorship bias. The lesson here is anyone with a family dog should have their children taken away.

I also used to take the ferry to Nantucket and MV as a kid. Thought that was safe too, but apparently those things sink and kill children. What, you let your kids take the ferry? Someone call child services!

Also known to kill children: Bee stings (don't let kids play outside), food allergies (or eat), influenza (be around other people), drowning (go swimming or take a bath).

I suppose to dismiss any of these as unlikely is an example of survivorship bias? I'm pretty sure it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/asia/south-korea-ship-si...

The only proper way to let your kids leave the house:

http://smurk.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/bubble_boy_2-754379...

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#157

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:06 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #150

anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- before cops arrived, kid was gone and obviously safe with the parent The second half of your premise contains two completely unwarranted assumptions. How exactly were the police supposed to know the now-departed child was a) safe and b) with his parent? Recall that the Mom who wrote the piece was driving a vehicle that wasn't registered to her and so therefore didn't match the description on the registered owners'…

The article appears to indicate that the person capturing video saw the lady leave and return. It is not clear if the video was rolling the entire time but certainly as the video-taker was giving the video to the police, they may have mentioned that the same person who left the car also returned. I don't see why the police would be more worried about an abduction in this situation than in any other "person with child…

Because the person in the video doesn't match the description of the registered owner of the car as recorded on their driving license. Think about it.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#158

Post by scott_karana » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:09 PM UTC

kevinnk wrote: post #77

ryandrake wrote: post #34

I don't now if it's an American thing or maybe a Western thing, but for whatever reason, voters and elected officials seem to be able to effortlessly make that huge leap from "It's sensible to do ABC" and "It should be required by law to do ABC, under penalty of fines and/or jail". We over-legislate things like public safety, and then rely on the court bureaucracy to apply sensibility and lenience on a case-by-case b…

How can you say it's a Western thing when places like Singapore have fines for not flushing the toilet?

1) Fines aren't criminal offenses

2) I suspect that there are more valid reasons to leave a child in a car, compared to reasons to not flush.

That said, the consequences are greater in the case of potential child neglect.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#159

Post by mentat » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:13 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #114

darklajid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons not to .. and reasons to to exactly that. The decision is not yours, not ours. It's the parent's. Like everything else about the daily life of the kid. That argument contains no value. Of course there are reasons that one might not do that. Loop/Recur to line 1.

That's not much help for kids who do have abusive or neglectful parents, is it? They're citizens too and if they're stuck in a dangerous situation they're entitled to the same level of protection as any other member of society. there's a middle ground between the state as inflexible guardian and complete parental sovereignty.

Is this case even remotely discussable as "middle ground"? There was no malice except on the part of the police and the bystander. Your responses to this thread show a deep lack of understanding of practical parenting or human resiliency.

Re: The day I left my son in the car

#160

Post by IanDrake » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:14 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #99

IanDrake wrote: post #44

Seriously, this is my number one reason for not having kids. For the younger crowd who may not understand, I was born in '77: - I rode in the back hatch (no seats) of my dad's corvette until I was 8, cops would wave to us. - At 6 I could ride my bike around pretty much anywhere I wanted, but wasn't allowed to cross rt6 (which I didn't, though no one checked). - Left in the car in parking lots for up to an hour. - Arr…

For the record, even today with our safety obsessed culture? Car accidents are still the leading preventable cause of death in children (non-preventable things like birth-defects and complications from childbirth itself are the only things that rank higher). Cars are what kills kids, even now in our hyper-safe society. So it's worth re-examining that stuff. Which means the thing with the Corvette? Probably wasn't a g…

>Which means the thing with the Corvette? Probably wasn't a good idea in hindsight.

My dad even thinks that now. Still the irony is that a corvette of that age isn't safe in an accident with any type of seat for any type of occupant. However, put a child seat in it any we all can pretend that it's somehow safe.

Just writing that makes me think there will be a law soon that kids can only ride in child-safe certified cars.