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Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

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Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#11

Post by ianbicking »

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #6

"Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are 50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only need to be changed about once a year." This is a chemical battery with very limited lifespan. Additionally without a…

> The batteries are "charged" not from the electrical grid, but from hydroelectric power generated at Alcoa's smelter in Baie-Comeau, Que., Tzidon said. When they are full-charged, they are thick, heavy panels made mostly of aluminum.

In a sense it's green if they are produced from green energy, like hydroelectric power in remote Canada. In that case it's not just green because it's hydroelectric, but also because it's inconveniently located hydroelectric it's not displacing more productive uses of the electricity. Maybe geothermal energy in Iceland would be another option.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#12

Post by xur17 »

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #6

"Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are 50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only need to be changed about once a year." This is a chemical battery with very limited lifespan. Additionally without a…

This is actually a pretty ingenious way of solving the distance issue for electric cars. As long as replacing the backup isn't egregiously expensive, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

This solves the last issue I have with electric cars (other than cost).

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#13

Post by dojomouse »

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #6

"Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are 50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only need to be changed about once a year." This is a chemical battery with very limited lifespan. Additionally without a…

It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting. Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though. It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity required for the smelting process.

I can't see how that a single use battery like this (which also needs swap infrastructure) has any net advantage over the rechargable swappable packs + fast chargers as Tesla use.

Maybe it could have applications in aerospace where existing lithium ion cells don't have sufficient energy density to even come close to a viable solution. But you'd want to compare it to other 'single use' options like synfuel.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#14

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dojomouse wrote: post #13
TrainedMonkey wrote: post #6

"Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are 50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only need to be changed about once a year." This is a chemical battery with very limited lifespan. Additionally without a…

It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting. Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though. It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity…

Maybe if the aluminum could be packaged as a liquid or a gel, it could be pumped in and out like gas.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#16

Post by frankus »

trhway wrote: post #9

metal-air batteries (fuel cells), rechargeable and not, is the future. Having comparable to gasoline energy density, yet higher efficiency - 60-90% vs. 30% of gasoline, it will transform cars and especially planes (subsonic ones). You can imagine that it is absolutely not an issue to replace a 100Kg spent aluminum fuel cell block on a small plane at airport. It would also be better than gas turbine for bigger commerc…

Vanadium-boride air is also a promising chemistry (http://phys.org/news/2013-09-molten-air-battery-storage-capa...).

For aircraft, I'm not sure it would be practical, but in theory you could jettison the spent batteries (which now weigh more thanks to the air adsorption) after takeoff, at which point they would fly/glide themselves to a nearby reprocessing station.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#17

Post by jccooper »

alephnil wrote: post #7

The reaction used by is not reversible, so the alumimium in the battery will be consumed, and the battery is not rechargeable. This is only said implicitly in the article. Thus this is more a fuel cell, using aluminium as fuel.

It's not reversible in the car, but it is reversible in an aluminum smelter. The power cell is turning the metal into aluminum oxide, which is (mostly) how we find Al in its ore form.

So once you burn it out, it gets shipped back to Alcoa and they treat it like some nice clean ore and shortly turn it back into metallic Al. Which is not entirely energy-cheap, but at current prices of less than $1/lb isn't too bad.

You can see where Alcoa would like such a process.

I don't know if the idea of a high-density consumable backup power supply will take off, but it's not a terrible idea until real batteries get much better.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#18

Post by maxerickson »

jccooper wrote: post #17
alephnil wrote: post #7

The reaction used by is not reversible, so the alumimium in the battery will be consumed, and the battery is not rechargeable. This is only said implicitly in the article. Thus this is more a fuel cell, using aluminium as fuel.

It's not reversible in the car, but it is reversible in an aluminum smelter. The power cell is turning the metal into aluminum oxide, which is (mostly) how we find Al in its ore form. So once you burn it out, it gets shipped back to Alcoa and they treat it like some nice clean ore and shortly turn it back into metallic Al. Which is not entirely energy-cheap, but at current prices of less than $1/lb isn't too bad. You…

It sounds like a 20 pound module would make a great rescue battery, even if putting them in the cars doesn't take off.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#19

Post by rpedela »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #14
dojomouse wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting. Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though. It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity…

Maybe if the aluminum could be packaged as a liquid or a gel, it could be pumped in and out like gas.

Something that requires 1,221 F (660.3 C) doesn't seem like something you would want to sit on or pump without serious protection.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#20

Post by bane »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #14
dojomouse wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting. Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though. It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity…

Maybe if the aluminum could be packaged as a liquid or a gel, it could be pumped in and out like gas.

Just use aluminum powder or prills. Bonus you get a huge surface area so the reactions happen fast.
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