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Chris Lattner on Swift

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Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#21
post #15
post #11

It is nice that he mentioned Light Table. I would not be surprised if Swift ends up really benefitting Clojure adoption indirectly. I think one of the big hangups for newcomers is that, if you don't have experience with a Lisp, it's often difficult to understand the benefits of interactive development. If a large amount of new programmers become exposed to it, they'll be more open to other options that provide simila…

The only thing that makes me sad is that because of their focus on secrecy, they're doomed to relearn all that we learned along the way. Having played with the swift playground stuff, just an hour long conversation could've made a big difference. Such is the way of Apple though.

On the other hand by keeping it secret and internal they avoided making bad decisions due to defensiveness and stubbornness.

An example of this is Go; they don't actually take input from outsiders (generics) and when they have had to give in to outside ideas they implement it poorly just to be different (exceptions as panic). They would rather people put in a no-op printf to avoid the unused package error rather than letting it be a warning because of their own self-righteousness.

Apple's secretive process may not be ideal, but there are far worse processes out there.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#22

Funny how he forgot to mention Golang somehow while that seems to be one of the bigger inspirations for the language.

That's a strange accusation, because Go is avowedly minimalist while Swift has cribbed most every thing from modern statically typed languages like ADTs, pattern matching, and generics.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#23
post #10

Chris demonstrated Swift and Playgrounds at WWDC 2014: "I can build anything with Swift... from a social media application, all the way up to a high-performance, 3D game using Metal." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKMAV6owYh4#t=6436 He wrote this chapter (entitled LLVM ) in the book, "The Architecture of Open Source Applications": http://aosabook.org/en/llvm.html * * * On the general topic, I wrote this [1] a littl…

Did he mention anywhere Swift will be open sourced, the way LLVM has been? If not, why?

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#24
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly expected Bret Victor to do the demo on Swift after seeing the realtime playground etc.

fwiw, he had no direct involvement in it. http://www.quora.com/Did-Bret-Victor-work-with-Apple-on-the-...

You are correct he was not involved. But the language creator specifically calls him and Lightroom out as inspiration.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#25
Another interesting thing to note is that because Swift really began in roughly mid-2010, Steve Jobs probably had his hand at least slightly in it (obviously not as a programmer).

I guess my point being that there was likely some more specific reason for why it gained momentum later.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#26

Funny how he forgot to mention Golang somehow while that seems to be one of the bigger inspirations for the language.

I don't understand why people keep comparing Swift and Go, as they have diametrically opposed philosophies. As stated succinctly by Bryan O'Sullivan (one of the most prominent people in the Haskell community) on Twitter:

"It's interesting to compare Swift and Go. One has caught up to the 1990s in language design, with the other firmly in the 60s."

Swift includes many of the language features that have been touted by the academic functional programming community for years but which have not made a large impact in industry, like algebraic data types, pattern matching, and Optionals. The designers of Go apparently looked at the past few decades of language research and decided that none of it interested them. The only really innovative parts of Go are its concurrency support, which Swift seems to be completely lacking.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#27
post #3

It's amazing that Apple managed to go from hatching the idea in mid-2010 to releasing a fully working framework 4 years later, with tight IDE integration, huge amount of testing and compatibility without a single leak (that I've heard of).

It's not clear how much code is actually written in Swift so far, so I'm not sure how much testing/compatibility was required.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#28

Funny how he forgot to mention Golang somehow while that seems to be one of the bigger inspirations for the language.

The language has nothing from Go.

Almost all Go features exist in languages since the early 80's, outside the C family.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#29
post #15
post #11

It is nice that he mentioned Light Table. I would not be surprised if Swift ends up really benefitting Clojure adoption indirectly. I think one of the big hangups for newcomers is that, if you don't have experience with a Lisp, it's often difficult to understand the benefits of interactive development. If a large amount of new programmers become exposed to it, they'll be more open to other options that provide simila…

The only thing that makes me sad is that because of their focus on secrecy, they're doomed to relearn all that we learned along the way. Having played with the swift playground stuff, just an hour long conversation could've made a big difference. Such is the way of Apple though.

When he said they hope to redefine how computer science is taught, that's a great goal (and to an outsider Swift looks great) but have they spoke to an academic about that idea?

If they take the Microsoft approach of being nice to schools that'd be awesome - much better to teach kids Swift than how to use Office. So if they're talking about schools, there's probably some private ones that would be interested but it'd take a crazy effort to crack teaching in schools on a wide scale.

Universities, not a chance. It might be great but it's not going to be an academic's choice of teaching language however good it might be for that.

Re: Chris Lattner on Swift

#30
post #26

Funny how he forgot to mention Golang somehow while that seems to be one of the bigger inspirations for the language.

I don't understand why people keep comparing Swift and Go, as they have diametrically opposed philosophies. As stated succinctly by Bryan O'Sullivan (one of the most prominent people in the Haskell community) on Twitter: "It's interesting to compare Swift and Go. One has caught up to the 1990s in language design, with the other firmly in the 60s." Swift includes many of the language features that have been touted by…

Lack of CS knowledge I guess, specially in programming language history.

They see things like func, and think Go was the first language to come up with it, when many others already had it.

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