Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#241

Post by gjm11 » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 6:19 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #106

gjm11 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear you're also conflating two things: money made and actual value produced. Suppose the trader is selling credit default swaps and helping cause a big financial crash, or the bulldozer operator is destroying acres of forest to clear the way for a tobacco plantation. What they do may be very valuable to the people paying them (and hence, if they're lucky, lucrative for them personally) but have substantially negat…

So can the guy with the shovel. Ultimately, the concept of "actual value" can be defined as one of two things: money (for things that have value for an individual) and laws (for things that have value for the society, e.g. externalities). Simply said, the society values certain things (short-term profit, growth, cars, cheap food, human lives) more than others (long-term stability, the environment, clean air, rainfore…

For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't attempting to say that traders and bulldozer drivers are bad people or that their jobs are bad in themselves. Sometimes traders bring about financial crises, but more often they keep the markets doing their (important) job efficiently. Sometimes bulldozer operators destroy beautiful or valuable things for someone's short-term gain, but more often they clear things out of the way so that newer better things can take their place. And, yes, sometimes people do things with terrible consequences even though they're sincerely and skilfully attempting to do the best they can -- though in the case of those credit default swaps that might be a difficult position to argue.

My point was narrower: Unless you choose to define the value of an activity to be what someone gets paid for doing it, you will find that those two things diverge, sometimes badly. So measures of productivity (e.g., GDP) that just count how much people get paid are, at best, going to do a very imperfect job of capturing anyone's idea of what's worth while. Most likely there will be large systematic disagreements.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#242

Post by hfsktr » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

aestra wrote: post #226

hfsktr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I default to America as that's where I live. I don't think much of our public transport. Sure where I live they probably don't need more than just the buses we have but I had never seen a passenger train (just cargo, as far as I know) until I went abroad. The ease of getting around was amazing and I could totally see not owning a car there. I'm sure there is just as good public transport here but it doesn't seem to b…

Where do you live where you've never seen a passenger train? The Northeast has a busy train route between cities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor Some cities (even some small ones) have EXCELLENT public transport but some places have zero public transport. And with widespread suburban sprawl it gets worse since you generally need a car to live in suburbia.

I live in Green Bay, WI. Not huge like Madison/Milwaukee but a decent size (IMO). Maybe I have just been really unlucky or oblivious. I only just found out last year that every year, for a long time now, ships come and port here, like galleons and stuff] for a few days as part of some event. So I could see me just not spotting one if it did happen.

Not sure why a train would actually come through here though.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#243

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 6:47 PM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #135

codehotter wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to know a lot about this and it's something I've always been interested in: When laws were passed to mandate 8 hour work days, what % of companies had 8 hour work days already? 10%? 20%? 80%? Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days, even though you work less total hours, because your productivity per hour is much higher. Was something like this known at the time? Or wa…

"Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days," We know ? Surely on a planet with 7 billion people, some of them can maintain their work efficiency for more than 8 hours. What about the Steve Jobs and John Carmack's of the world? I don't see them being 9-5 people.

> What about the Steve Jobs

If Steve Jobs would have worked less, he may not have been removed from the Apple Board. If he had spent more time with his family, maybe the Lisa wouldn't have had the connotations that it had.

These are not conclusive, but they do point us in a direction.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#244

Post by mtrimpe » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #212

mtrimpe wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sheesh; why the downvotes? It's a very appropriate comment as the 'Protestant work ethic' is the canonical name for, and most likely significant source of, the exact feeling the GP described.

There are plenty of Protestants in Europe (obviously) and many of them are more conservative than the US as regards work & society - eg it's typical in small towns not to find any shops open on Sunday in the Netherlands or Germany, and IIRC Germany had pretty stringent laws against Sunday working until quite recently. Some of this is related to trade union history, but on the other hand if you're a registered member…

My father was raised Protestant, I went to a Protestant elementary school and was raised half secular, half Protestant and I generally recognize it very much in myself, my father and quite a few people in our surroundings (mixed religion area.)

The thing is that it's not necessarily so much about working hours here. It's the general feeling that every moment should be intentful, purposeful and, like our churches, generally without frills.

In a way it feels less like 'work hard' and more like 'don't endulge yourself' to me.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#245

Post by whatevsbro » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #106

gjm11 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear you're also conflating two things: money made and actual value produced. Suppose the trader is selling credit default swaps and helping cause a big financial crash, or the bulldozer operator is destroying acres of forest to clear the way for a tobacco plantation. What they do may be very valuable to the people paying them (and hence, if they're lucky, lucrative for them personally) but have substantially negat…

So can the guy with the shovel. Ultimately, the concept of "actual value" can be defined as one of two things: money (for things that have value for an individual) and laws (for things that have value for the society, e.g. externalities). Simply said, the society values certain things (short-term profit, growth, cars, cheap food, human lives) more than others (long-term stability, the environment, clean air, rainfore…

> Ultimately, the concept of "actual value" can be defined as one of two things: money

Even when "money" refers to hyperinflated Zimbabwean dollars? No, it's clear those had no value.

Value is subjective, by the way. You may value 50cent's music enough to buy it, and someone else may not.

> laws (for things that have value for the society, e.g. externalities).

Oh? Like all those countless laws that make running a legitimate business more difficult? Do those have value? -Well, in fact they do. They have value to the insiders of whatever cartel/skimming operations the laws support, by reducing or eliminating competition.

But that's not what you imagined. The guy you responded to had the right idea, but he was talking about "wealth" - things of value that support the production of new value.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#246

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #115

jacquesm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the whole story. For single parents going from 40 to 32 hours per week can be a net-neutral operation from a money perspective. The various tax breaks will increase with just about the same as your net salary drops. In rare cases you'll even end up with net a bit more than before. Going from 32 to 24 might still be the same, below that the balance shifts and you end up with less. I just ran the numbers wit…

So you're saying you earn the exact same net amount working 32 vs 40 hours? brb talking to the boss.

Many of the commenters are saying that they actually burn out a little more because those 32 hours are more productive than the 40.

The research here also says that the 32 hours can be just as productive as the 40.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#247

Post by mietek » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 7:50 PM UTC

barsonme wrote: post #41

bartkappenburg wrote: post #22

I'm Dutch and I work 4 days a week. My productivity in my startup is the same. This is what researchers say about our average number of hours per week: For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour. They pay higher taxes and earn less than Americans. But on average, they work roughly 11 weeks less than their American counterparts each year, have access to government-fun…

Without getting too much into it, it's always dangerous comparing different countries. I'm not trying to discredit you, but at times it can be apples and oranges because the amount of variables is incredible. For example, consider when somebody asks, "Well, $country has light rail that's cheap, punctual, and goes everywhere. Why doesn't the U.S. have it?" They ignore that the U.S. is the fourth largest country in the…

Is the number of hours in a day also larger in the U.S. than in most other countries in the world?

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#248

Post by MisterBastahrd » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 8:02 PM UTC

homakov wrote: post #230

vidarh wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a meaningless statement without defining which form of capitalism and which form of socialism you are referring to. I'm a marxist, and I hate many forms of socialism. Karl Marx hated many forms of socialism. He even devoted a chapter of the Communist Manifesto to ripping apart forms of socialism he didn't like.

I love regular capitalism and hate all forms of socialism.

Sorry, this doesn't exist in the real world and never will.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#249

Post by yodsanklai » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 8:14 PM UTC

ddebernardy wrote: post #76

showsover wrote: post #2

This stood out to me: >The Swedish town of Kiruna actually gave up its six-hour working days in 2005 after finding that the increased intensity of work was not a positive. "People have seen there that the intensity of the job increases significantly, with negative effects on health as a consequence," Could that be because we are used to fit our work in 8 hours and work accordingly? Doing 100% of your work in 75% of t…

This was the big problem in France when they passed the 35h work week with no pay loss. Workers were suddenly expected to do the same output in 4h less, and this increased stress levels quite a bit -- or so I've been told by friends who live there.

It may be true in some fields, but it's not my experience. A lot of workers in France work more than 35 hours. In particular, most qualified workers (in the software industry for instance) don't have a fixed schedule and overtime isn't paid. To compensate for the 4 hours (going from 39h to 35h) they have more vacation days. It amounts to about 10 days annually depending on the company. Besides, some people are pressured not to take those day off. Several friends of mine work long hours (> 10) and don't take more that 4-5 weeks vacation a year (which is good compared to the US or Asia, but far from the promised 35 hours a week).

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#250

Post by diogenescynic » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

homakov wrote: post #230

vidarh wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a meaningless statement without defining which form of capitalism and which form of socialism you are referring to. I'm a marxist, and I hate many forms of socialism. Karl Marx hated many forms of socialism. He even devoted a chapter of the Communist Manifesto to ripping apart forms of socialism he didn't like.

I love regular capitalism and hate all forms of socialism.

The thing is, socialism is all over America and people actually like it. I'm guessing even you. For example, the military, public roads, the police, public libraries, public schools, fire departments, postal service, garbage collection, public landfills, the FBI, the polio vaccine (Dr. Salk could have sold his vaccine in the free market and made millions and millions of dollars. Instead he gave it to the federal government to begin eradicating polio.), museums, public parks, sewers, the GI bill, public beaches, snow removal, street lights, Amtrak, NPR, USDA, FDA, the Census, and on and on.