Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 272 posts

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#231

Post by homakov »

Loughla wrote: post #141
homakov wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd quit. I'm a specialist and will easily find another job.

You seem not to understand the depth of that statement. It's not that one company would have excess hours; all of them would. So, you would be free to find a new position. . . at another company with a 60 hour work week. Look at the history of the labor movement. Those in power tended to abuse those that weren't; long hours, unsafe conditions, etc. Now, unless you work in a coal mine or foundry, we can count out unsa…

This is so senseless i dont know how to respond. It is like saying legal guns will increase the crime rate because they can kill. Companies compete to get specialists (look at how many perks average startup or google offers). Low skilled jobs? Who cares about them.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#232

Post by homakov »

spacehome wrote: post #45
homakov wrote: post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

In theory you have a point, but historically speaking, individual businesses have been quite reluctant to allow shorter hours than what prevails in society. Progress on this metric almost always comes from societal movements and government intervention.

Lets set 40 hours as max and 10 hours as min. Now it is flexible enough.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#233

Post by aestra »

justnotsure wrote: post #215
vidarh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "communistic states" have to do with anything? They were/are kleptocratic oligarchies that are so stratified that they have even worse class systems than capitalist states. > My point is that system evolution via democratic process is much better than bloody revolution that left-wing quite often has on its mouth. It was not evolution via democratic process that gave us the 8 hour day. It was not bloody revo…

My grandad worked 14 hours+ shifts in 1950s and 1960s in communistic Poland in a steel mill. Anybody who would refuse would end up in jail or even worse - gulag - for treason. As bad as capitalism is it will never, ever be as bad as communism can be.

Capitalism if done wrong can be just as shitty.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#234

Post by aestra »

vidarh wrote: post #145
justnotsure wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note that in communistic states people worked regularly over 8 hours long after 8-hours work week was legislated in the USA. My point is that system evolution via democratic process is much better than bloody revolution that left-wing quite often has on its mouth.

What does "communistic states" have to do with anything? They were/are kleptocratic oligarchies that are so stratified that they have even worse class systems than capitalist states. > My point is that system evolution via democratic process is much better than bloody revolution that left-wing quite often has on its mouth. It was not evolution via democratic process that gave us the 8 hour day. It was not bloody revo…

>Plenty of people died because of the disproportionate powers of employees to dictate conditions.

This is extremely important and often overlooked. Those pesky government regulations save lives. The idea that dangerous conditions and unsafe product won't happen in the free market because that's "bad for business" is a pipe dream.

Most of us weren't alive when regulations for safety wasn't a "thing" and can't appreciate them.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#235

Post by dragonwriter »

vidarh wrote: post #145
justnotsure wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note that in communistic states people worked regularly over 8 hours long after 8-hours work week was legislated in the USA. My point is that system evolution via democratic process is much better than bloody revolution that left-wing quite often has on its mouth.

What does "communistic states" have to do with anything? They were/are kleptocratic oligarchies that are so stratified that they have even worse class systems than capitalist states. > My point is that system evolution via democratic process is much better than bloody revolution that left-wing quite often has on its mouth. It was not evolution via democratic process that gave us the 8 hour day. It was not bloody revo…

> Plenty of people died because of the disproportionate powers of employees to dictate conditions.

Surely, "employers" rather than "employees" is meant here!

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#236

Post by toomuchtodo »

kourt wrote: post #214
toomuchtodo wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/ "An average worker needs to work a mere 11 hours per week to produce as much as one working 40 hours per week in 1950. (The data here is from the US, but productivity increases in Europe and Japan have been of the same magnitude.) The conclusion is inescapable: if productivity means anything at all, a worker should be able to earn the same standard of living as a…

Thanks; I'm familiar with that. Regardless of how total output compares with days of yore, this is now: I'd like to see research demonstrating that, over time, knowledge workers on a 35 hour schedule outproduce those on a 40 hour schedule.

The French have the highest GDP per capita per hour worked (right up there with the Dutch), while working close to the fewest hours. Is that not a sign of productivity?

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#237

Post by dllthomas »

aestra wrote: post #222
dllthomas wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your thesis holds, but I don't think it's clear that your example does (though it certainly still could). Depending on just how much chance of accident goes up over time, and just how great a "productivity" hit we apply for an accident, it is absolutely the case that your productivity falls at some point and it's conceivably the case that it's before 12 (or even 8) hours - though for all I know it's at 15.

I'm sure the fatigue that sets in after (say) 15 hours would be a serious factor in accident risk. I mean truckers are required to stay under a certain work day/week and get enough sleep for safety reasons. Sure if they drove 24 hours straight they would get there faster and in theory be more productive but there are serious safety concerns both with the driver and with the truck (less time for maintenance or inspect…

Yes, also relevant might be the difference between what is safe as a one-off (maybe you really can drive 20 hours safely in a day, if you're well rested beforehand) and what you can do sustainably day after day.

In principle, this is stuff that insurance companies should be on top of...

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#238

Post by aestra »

justnotsure wrote: post #85
Numberwang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it simply is not possible for us swedes to work from home like that because of our smaller houses? I certainly wouldn't know where to put the chemistry lab or the industrial robots. I barely have room for the mine-shaft.

I thought you must have bigger houses? no? I mean how can you claim to have better standard of living and live happier life in a small house without any space?

>how can you claim to have better standard of living and live happier life in a small house without any space

OH BOY.

Having a huge house doesn't actually make you happy. You only think it does.

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/qa-stuffocation-...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/dont-indulg...

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#239

Post by aestra »

justnotsure wrote: post #17

The innovative US economy will make it all irrelevant anyway by introducing more and more work from home jobs. Work from home is almost common in the US and basically non-existent in Europe. I wouldn't trade Swedish 6-hour workday with my American-based 8-hour while working from my coach at home. Somehow socialists are always one step behind Mother Nature, i.e. free markets.

> Work from home is almost common in the US and basically non-existent in Europe.

1) I live in the US and only one person I know works from home but she is a very special case (her employer made an exception). When I mention I have the option of working from home once in a while (and I mean once in a while, like a few times a year) everyone is like "REALLY!? THAT SOUNDS AMAZING!"

2) "Europe" isn't a single entity.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#240

Post by alxndr »

tekalon wrote: post #220
amirmc wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people complain about the pointlessness of meetings despite not doing anything to make them more efficient (cf start and end on time, avoid chit-chat, stick to the agenda, send actions quickly afterwards etc). It only takes a small about of self-discipline to get there but everyone has to exercise it. I'm lucky to have learned from some excellent meeting-chairs but have only been able to reproduce the efficie…

I hate meetings. A co-worker and I play a game whenever we are in charge of a meeting- see if we can end it early. It's amazing when an hour long meeting can be finished in 20 minutes. Unfortunately, there are a few people that like to drag the meeting out (unprepared, asking unrelated questions, making people wait for XYZ event that could be sent as an email later).

Ha, that's a great idea, to gamify it! Monthly competition to see who can end a meeting the earliest?
Post reply on HN