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Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#191

Post by Roboprog »

amirmc wrote: post #149
comrade1 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same experience in Switzerland. I moved from the u.s. (s.f., boston, dc, socal) and despite working less we get a lot more done than in the u.s. We have an 8.5 hour workday in Switzerland which we strictly stick to - we get comp time if you work over. In the u.s. we were pretty regularly working 10 hour days and 12 wasn't unusual, but we were wasting so much time. A good example is meetings - most people g…

And yet people complain about the pointlessness of meetings despite not doing anything to make them more efficient (cf start and end on time, avoid chit-chat, stick to the agenda, send actions quickly afterwards etc). It only takes a small about of self-discipline to get there but everyone has to exercise it. I'm lucky to have learned from some excellent meeting-chairs but have only been able to reproduce the efficie…

It's hard to get to the meetings 5 minutes early when they are back to back to back... :-(

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#192

Post by dnautics »

crazy1van wrote: post #135
codehotter wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to know a lot about this and it's something I've always been interested in: When laws were passed to mandate 8 hour work days, what % of companies had 8 hour work days already? 10%? 20%? 80%? Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days, even though you work less total hours, because your productivity per hour is much higher. Was something like this known at the time? Or wa…

"Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days," We know ? Surely on a planet with 7 billion people, some of them can maintain their work efficiency for more than 8 hours. What about the Steve Jobs and John Carmack's of the world? I don't see them being 9-5 people.

As a Lyft driver, I am more productive the more hours I work (I top out at 12 hours which I only do on weekends). So the 8 hour rule doesn't apply for everyone.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#193

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

collyw wrote: post #183
valdiorn wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all?) Scandinavian countries, time off is not a luxury. It is a right, awarded to every working man and woman, guarded by law and regulations.

Why does the rest of the world end up with such crap politics? What are you doing right in Scandinavia?

Because unlike Scandinavia, they aren't dying civilizations with net negative fertility.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#194

Post by apercu »

furyg3 wrote: post #56

I moved from the US (high on the list) to the Netherlands (bottom of the list) a while ago. Different jobs and sectors vary, but the theme I can confirm is that the Dutch feel more productive, generally (I work in software development). In very broad terms, the Dutch are more likely to plan and stick to those plans. Personal time and time off are valued, so you need to be efficient in your working hours. You can't re…

"Having to work in the weekends at all is a sign of bad project management"

Technology is easy, people are hard.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#195

Post by crazy1van »

VLM wrote: post #187
crazy1van wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days," We know ? Surely on a planet with 7 billion people, some of them can maintain their work efficiency for more than 8 hours. What about the Steve Jobs and John Carmack's of the world? I don't see them being 9-5 people.

That seems to have a peculiar and unlikely assumption that they would have produced less by working fewer hours, while almost all human experiences show those at the top of their profession rarely if ever got there by merely punching a timeclock more than the next tier down. I will never be a world class ballet dancer or world class basketball player simply by putting in a little more time than the next guy.

Yes more time won't make you world class, but I bet the world class ballet dancer and basketball players often put in more than 8 hours a day.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#196

Post by nawitus »

karmajunkie wrote: post #182
iamtew wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly common thing here in the Netherlands actually, four day work week. Most of my colleagues I know who does this to have some extra time with their family/kids. Usually it's a split in the middle of the week or something, for example my manager doesn't work tuesday's, it's his "papadag" as he then spends time with his kids and don't have to send them off to day-care or get a nanny. Another colleague of…

> obviously these arrangements will affect your salary I don't really find this obvious or self-evident. One of my very biggest complaints about the economic climate today is that all of the productivity gains go to the owners, and very little to workers. If I as a worker am producing more, it follows that I should be working less, or paid more (which amounts to the same thing.) to do otherwise eliminates jobs that w…

If the market works, then the worker should get gains too. However, these examples were of reducing total hours worked and presumably also reducing total productivity to some degree.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#197

Post by apercu »

gagege wrote: post #188
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is planning and taking vacation really a problem for most people? In nearly 20 years, I've never had to delay a vacation, much less cancel one. Perhaps it's not a function of the company, but rather the worker, valuing work more than rest? The ability to forget work and recharge is critical for creative workers, something companies should be more aware of.

Same experience. I'm in the US and every employer I've worked for has allowed me to take my 2+ weeks off, no questions asked, no calls, no expectation to respond to emails (I don't have work email on my phone).

I've worked in the US and Canada for 20 years. I've never really cancelled a vacation, though at the senior level I've made a choice to delay one. It was a personal choice, however. Sure, it was for the greater good of the project, but no one pressured me.

In knowledge and creative work I find that if you take 4-5 weeks off a year (I've only done this once) work can bleed in to "off time" and it doesn't matter. When you take 2-3 weeks off a year you have to protect your personal time.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#198

Post by dllthomas »

dnautics wrote: post #192
crazy1van wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days," We know ? Surely on a planet with 7 billion people, some of them can maintain their work efficiency for more than 8 hours. What about the Steve Jobs and John Carmack's of the world? I don't see them being 9-5 people.

As a Lyft driver, I am more productive the more hours I work (I top out at 12 hours which I only do on weekends). So the 8 hour rule doesn't apply for everyone.

I think your thesis holds, but I don't think it's clear that your example does (though it certainly still could). Depending on just how much chance of accident goes up over time, and just how great a "productivity" hit we apply for an accident, it is absolutely the case that your productivity falls at some point and it's conceivably the case that it's before 12 (or even 8) hours - though for all I know it's at 15.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#199

Post by mbrock »

terranstyler wrote: post #186
mbrock wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pretty severe network effects in place, though, as well as obvious imbalance of power (the wage worker is, almost by definition, relatively poor, indebted, etc). Working hours have always been a big part of labor politics. The individual contractual perspective is not the whole story.

I don't know what network effects you mean. But I agree with the imbalance of power, at least in the common case. However, the more specific and difficult your job is, the more the power leans towards the employee. Still, I believe any kind of power inequality will manifest itself somewhere whether you fix working hours or not.

Almost every time I've talked to someone about reducing their working hours, the most serious reason not to has been something like "but everyone else is working 8 hours."

It's not like the "invisible hand" simply discovered the optimum life arrangement for all workers everywhere.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#200

Post by toomuchtodo »

up_and_up wrote: post #184
paulhauggis wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of my last remote job. Every day, we would have. Standup meeting. These are supposed to be 15 minutes, but typically would last well over an hour. On top of this, we would have: planning (4 hour meeting), review (3 hour), retrospective (3 or 4 hours), and the boss decided we weren't having enough meetings..so he added a soical meeting every Friday for an hour. We were all remote and this was a way for…

Haha thats hilarious. I currently work for a fully remote company and it's completely the opposite. We do one weekly status meeting which is usually 20-30 mins. Then project planning/troubleshooting/teambuilding meetings as needed usually around 2-4 hours per MONTH. EVERYTHING else is discussed/solved very efficiently via IM. I hope to never work for a company with meetingitus again, big waste of time and resources.

Zapier?
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