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(Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

mattmaroon.com

71–80 of 111 posts

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#71

In some ways growth has mitigated many of the effects listed in the article relative to the HN 2010. 1. Monolithic dominance of the front page by a single story appear to have been mitigated from some combination of algorithmic and human moderation. But it's still a problem because the threshold for the front page is higher and it feels as though fewer of those weird corner case articles have staying power. On the ot…

Maybe I'm a sucker for doing it for free but I usually end up defending Google. It's not because I'm particularly fond of them but because the criticism is often unfair and sometimes downright ridiculous.

They developed an open source mobile operating system, yet get pummelled for adding a few proprietary bits in ways that MS and Apple, who develop completely closed systems, never are.

Whenever they make changes that are obviously beneficial for regular users (featuring the most likely result on top of SERP, sorting e-mail into categories, purging web spam), there's a torrent of articles usually critical of the change. And it would be completely understandable if those were power users who genuinely lose out on many of those changes but no. Those are completely unsubstantiated accusations about trying to boost their bottom line.

Microsoft bashing on the other hand is not some conspiracy against SV outsiders but rather a legacy of their fight against open source, including providing funds to SCO.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#72
HA this guy. For years he went on and on and on about my first start-up idea and not in a positive way.

In 2007 I created The Social Alarm Clock (was my 1st idea on the web) and asked for feedback here. This Matt guy, hated the concept and said so in my Ask HN posted in 2007. Yet it didnt end there, he continued his hate for it in many HN posts throughout the years and even blogged about in 2011 or 2012.

HA, it had an impact on him.

Well, we have moved onto to our second idea and unfortunately I don't think http://SpeakerBlast.com (Turn a crowd & their devices into a huge stereo) is going to have the same effect on Matt. Though maybe...

Cheers, Matt, Cheers!

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#73
post #67

In some ways growth has mitigated many of the effects listed in the article relative to the HN 2010. 1. Monolithic dominance of the front page by a single story appear to have been mitigated from some combination of algorithmic and human moderation. But it's still a problem because the threshold for the front page is higher and it feels as though fewer of those weird corner case articles have staying power. On the ot…

I've never noticed abundance of Apple articles, until this morning. Out of 13 top articles over half of them were leading to apple.com. Some feature to filter out unwanted links might be useful here. On the topic of voting, I've been thinking about two parallel scores - one could be traditional up/down vote, which, alas also traditionally, signifies agreeing/disagreeing; the second could be valuable/not valuable scor…

It used to be that every Apple announcement no matter how minor produced links to every Mac related site...for days before the event so that people could speculate. Then the day of the announcement there would be links to live reporting, links to every 'first look' article on every Mac site and the official Apple pages. As a bonus there were always many 'Ask HN:' companion threads.

As personally disinterested in the subject as I am, the current situation is much better, and the number of articles is unusual these days but justified because of the scale of Apple's announcements. While HN exposure is as usual disproportionate to actual relevance within computing, the Apple news is actually big Apple news.

As for comment scores, there's no such thing as accuracy independent of the actual score. Life's not fair and neither is internet commenting. Upvotes and downvotes are multivalent except in so far as they express a user's inclination to upvote or downvote or not vote. We are talking about 'Internet Points' for fuck's sake.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#74
HN has its problems for sure, but I think it's currently the best general tech/interest site on the Internet at the moment. If I find I'm getting jaded with the mindless groupthink here, I just usually take a couple weeks off. Usually by then, whatever hot topic that was irritating me is out of the news cycle and the hive mind has moved on.

At least once a week I find something on the front page that is unique, intensely interesting, and I haven't seen anyplace else. It's often not a programmery/businessy/startupy topic. I come back for that more than anything. But I really enjoy the conversations here, the polite (if sometimes heated) debates, and the kinds of personal anecdotes that often fill up the comments here.

I agree that the Apple fanboyism here can be pretty intense. I'm not a huge Apple fan, but I have a couple Macs and find them to be fine general purpose computing devices. I'm noticed though that the real hardcore fanboy voice that used to be very vocal and dominate every thread (even if it wasn't about Apple) has started to dilute. I don't know if it's because the great conversion wave of Windows and Linux people to OS X has abated and people are getting over their honeymoon period, or if the userbase of HN has expanded outside of SV enough that the Apple echo chamber isn't as loud and annoying as it used to be. I rarely see a vapid Gruber post on the front page anymore (filled with comments about how insightful he is). The death of Jobs seems to have taken a lot of wind out of the Apple lobby here.

Still there's a very pro-Apple bias to the moderation powers here. Many of the main Android news sources are autokilled on submission here for example. I'm sure there's some sort of history and reasoning behind it, but it's kind of annoying whenever Apple changes a power plug to have the front page filled with submissions about it, but when Microsoft or Google do something honestly ground breaking to have submissions to all the news sites about it insta-killed.

One of the biggest changes to this site that I'm glad to see is the removal of scores. It was super controversial (and still is I imagine) when it happened, but it seems to have entirely eliminated the rockstar effect, where people with high global karma scores got hundreds of upvotes simply for writing a normal, nothing special comment. That, combined with downvote caps on comments seems to have civilized this place quite a bit and put down mobs before they happened.

I completely agree with the anti-corporate and out-of-touch nature of much of the community here. But I don't think that's an evil as much as the nature of the younger-skewed SV-centric demographic here. When I was 20 or whatever, and didn't have a family to provide for or a career to manage, I thought it was a totally sane idea to not even bother with an apartment or car, sleep on a cot in my office and shower in the gym. Today, at my age, I think it's the sign of a person with a mental health disorder. People simply think differently at different ages and in different circumstances.

I am bothered by the weird anti-tech, anti-business vibe that sometimes percolates up on certain topics, on a site about tech business -- no doubt typed up on brand new MBPs and right after a comment extolling the virtues of Tesla's upwardly moving stock price. It's a kind of cognitive dissonance that I find troubling. There's actually a large contingent of the HN community that seem to be almost impossibly naive ideologues. But again, all this might be because of the skew towards young people. The college-aged protester is a real thing, for a wide variety of demographic, experiential and sociological reasons. It's no doubt just bleeding over into this community.

However, I do find the international discussions here particularly enlightening.

One thing that I do find a bit sad is the lack of pure tech, pure startup discussions. There really did used to be more tech discussion (code tips, tech stack discussions etc.) and ShowHN/AskHN posts. But those have either been overwhelmed by more general topics on the front page, or in the case of the *HN posts, purposely pushed off quicker than normal posts (which I think is a tragedy).

If I had to change 1 thing though, it would be to force an explanatory comment on downvote. And have those comments not necessarily be required to have the same contribution requirements as normal discussions. In fact, I'd be fine if they were anonymous and unreply-able. I'm not hit with downvote brigades often, but when I am, I'm genuinely curious about why, and I'm rarely offered explanation. When somebody does provide one, I usually find it to be informative in some way.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#75
post #25

I agree with most of his points. I stopped reading Slashdot because I didn't like how the voting affected my interaction with the site, and I went cold turkey on Reddit and haven't been back (or even missed it) for maybe a year now. Maybe I should ditch my HN account too. Other than as an experiment in how to craft an inoffensive comment that will be accepted by the tiny subset of humanity who lurk here, it doesn't r…

well the OP mentioned changing the password to long unrecoverable string. How did he manage to come back? did he store pwd somewhere? pull strings at YC?? How?

Made a new account? I don't know.

It's kind of crazy that there's no "forgot password" option. I can understand not allowing account deletion, because you don't want to break conversations by having someone's comments mass-deleted, but not having a password retrieval mechanism is just foolish. Amateur hour incarnate. This does not look like a system designed by someone who's making a real commitment.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#76
The author points out that users upvote a comment based on whether they agree with it or not, and not based on how useful it is to the discussion. Did you really expect it to work any other way? You're expecting internet commentators to be impartial? Even supreme court judges have a hard time remaining impartial. Why do you think someone who spends 15 minutes a day reading articles about technology here would give a shit?

Of course votes reflect agreement / disagreement. What else can they realistically reflect?

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never noticed abundance of Apple articles, until this morning. Out of 13 top articles over half of them were leading to apple.com. Some feature to filter out unwanted links might be useful here. On the topic of voting, I've been thinking about two parallel scores - one could be traditional up/down vote, which, alas also traditionally, signifies agreeing/disagreeing; the second could be valuable/not valuable scor…

It used to be that every Apple announcement no matter how minor produced links to every Mac related site...for days before the event so that people could speculate. Then the day of the announcement there would be links to live reporting, links to every 'first look' article on every Mac site and the official Apple pages. As a bonus there were always many 'Ask HN:' companion threads. As personally disinterested in the…

I totally agree. And the ultra-weird "it's awesome if Apple does a thing, but completely evil if anybody else even sniffs at the idea" groupthink that permeated almost every thread on any topic seems to have abated somewhat. It's still there on occasion, but Gruber's impossibly apologist blog posts are generally off the front page and the ultra-apologists seems to have started fading after Steve Job's death.

There was definitely an almost pseudo-religious "newly converted" component to it.

These days if I see Gruber on the front page it's usually because of something genuinely interesting.

But for a couple solid years there, you couldn't say anything that might even be assumed to be critical of an Apple product without getting downvoted. I really wanted a place of smart people who could celebrate Apple's achievements and criticize their failures without descending into religious flamewars, and HN simply wasn't providing this.

It's definitely better now.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#78

The author points out that users upvote a comment based on whether they agree with it or not, and not based on how useful it is to the discussion. Did you really expect it to work any other way? You're expecting internet commentators to be impartial? Even supreme court judges have a hard time remaining impartial. Why do you think someone who spends 15 minutes a day reading articles about technology here would give a…

The problem with linking karma to up/down votes is that it prevents people from posting anything that is contrary to popular opinion and therefore downvoted, even if it may be well thought out or, shock horror, factually accurate too!!

The end result is an ever increasing alignment of 'group-think' where popular opinions are boosted and differing opinions are hidden.

Up/down voters just need to take a second and consider what they're voting for. If it's just because they agree, then don't. If they agree and they've learned something new, then do. If they disagree and but they think the arguments are well presented or they've learned something new, upvote.

Down voting should be reserved only for inappropriate comments, not disagreement.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#79

In some ways growth has mitigated many of the effects listed in the article relative to the HN 2010. 1. Monolithic dominance of the front page by a single story appear to have been mitigated from some combination of algorithmic and human moderation. But it's still a problem because the threshold for the front page is higher and it feels as though fewer of those weird corner case articles have staying power. On the ot…

Maybe I'm a sucker for doing it for free but I usually end up defending Google. It's not because I'm particularly fond of them but because the criticism is often unfair and sometimes downright ridiculous. They developed an open source mobile operating system, yet get pummelled for adding a few proprietary bits in ways that MS and Apple, who develop completely closed systems, never are. Whenever they make changes that…

SCO - the historical one, first licensed and then purchased Xenix from Microsoft - remember that Microsoft sold Unix for many years. The historical SCO purchased Xenix in part with shares in their company giving Microsoft an ownership stake in the historical SCO.

With the historical SCO's asset sale came the asset of contractual relationships with Microsoft. In various lawsuits, Microsoft's actions are dictated by those contracts and the exposure various alternative courses would create.

Bashing Microsoft was the cornerstone of a long running multi-billion dollar ad campaign of a popular investor backed Silicon Valley based company. None of it was related to Open Source or SCO. The chief commercial proponent of Open Source was another investor backed Silicon Valley company now owned by Oracle. The company which drove the anti-trust case against Microsoft was an investor backed Silicon Valley company - sold to the tune of $10 billion to a company which mass mailed low quality drink coasters at the turn of the millennium. One of the thereby enriched founders is a leading Silicon Valley VC [a model SVVC so to speak].

Organic MicroSoft bashing looks like Richard Stallman. Done on principle, Google and Apple don't get to buy indulgences.

Re: (Why) I quit Hacker News (2010)

#80
Can't agree more, in fact I'm searching right now on how to close my account here at HN, I mean, totally erasing it, not just changing to a soon-to-be-forgotten password.

I will still occasionally read this site, but will never comment and do anything about it. The silent-downvote is not friendly at all, especially to who that does not know the "rules" well. how did the downvote-jury chosen? why are they superior? what's the rule for them to downvote? for me I just feel they are a group of jerks lurking, if you call this democratic, fuck it.

Just give me a way to cleanly close my account.

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