Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#61

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:00 AM UTC

iamtew wrote: post #21

skrause wrote: post #7

If someone gave me the chance of a 30-hour work week, I would rather work 4 days of 7,5 hours than 5 days of 6 hours. Just the hassle of getting up early, dressing up for work, commuting etc. isn't really worth it when I'm only going to work 6 hours anyway. I'd rather take an extra day off.

This is a fairly common thing here in the Netherlands actually, four day work week. Most of my colleagues I know who does this to have some extra time with their family/kids. Usually it's a split in the middle of the week or something, for example my manager doesn't work tuesday's, it's his "papadag" as he then spends time with his kids and don't have to send them off to day-care or get a nanny. Another colleague of…

That's not the whole story.

For single parents going from 40 to 32 hours per week can be a net-neutral operation from a money perspective. The various tax breaks will increase with just about the same as your net salary drops. In rare cases you'll even end up with net a bit more than before. Going from 32 to 24 might still be the same, below that the balance shifts and you end up with less.

I just ran the numbers with one of my employees in NL and we came to this exact conclusion so she decided to work one day less. In countries with a strong social net the equation is not always as simple as time*hourly rate, your situation should be taken into account as well.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#62

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:02 AM UTC

blencdr wrote: post #24

showsover wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the article is about 6-hour days, not mix-and-match-hour days. It will be interesting to see what differs from 8-hour days, both in free time, shopping, traffic, and more. Imagine that the 6-hour day is successful, and we can make shifts. Some people go to work from 8 - 2, others from 12-6. That could lighten some traffic jams I venture.

I'm not sure that a small businesses can afford to make shifts (or 4 days week) if the company must be reachable by a client.

It won't make any difference from the employers perspective other than that they'll have to do a better job of sharing the knowledge required to do the work across more employees. This is a good thing anyway. The number of fte's remains the same. The number of people fulfilling those fte's goes up but payroll will remain roughly unaffected.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#63

Post by adrianb » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:06 AM UTC

iamtew wrote: post #21

skrause wrote: post #7

If someone gave me the chance of a 30-hour work week, I would rather work 4 days of 7,5 hours than 5 days of 6 hours. Just the hassle of getting up early, dressing up for work, commuting etc. isn't really worth it when I'm only going to work 6 hours anyway. I'd rather take an extra day off.

This is a fairly common thing here in the Netherlands actually, four day work week. Most of my colleagues I know who does this to have some extra time with their family/kids. Usually it's a split in the middle of the week or something, for example my manager doesn't work tuesday's, it's his "papadag" as he then spends time with his kids and don't have to send them off to day-care or get a nanny. Another colleague of…

Everybody has papadagen where I work too. However I've always wondered how much getting one is decided by the difficulty of securing daycare for all children and the costs it has.

Would they still get one if the daycare was cheaper and with plenty of room for everyone or would they prefer the salary increase?

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#64

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:08 AM UTC

codehotter wrote: post #60

vidarh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it was left up to business, we had 14 hour+ days. It took many decades of extensive strikes and demonstrations, during which dozens of workers were killed, before the 8 hour day became the norm. The US union that is now the AFL-CIO leadership in pushing for the 8 hour day led directly to making May 1st the international day for labor demonstrations, in part in commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre. If…

You seem to know a lot about this and it's something I've always been interested in: When laws were passed to mandate 8 hour work days, what % of companies had 8 hour work days already? 10%? 20%? 80%? Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days, even though you work less total hours, because your productivity per hour is much higher. Was something like this known at the time? Or wa…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

Is a good read on the subject and the referenced links are even better (as usual). The 12 hour workday had to be fought for... that tells you something about what %age of employers had 8 hour workdays already, left to their own devices that percentage would be very close to 0. Each and every reduction in hours had to be fought for somehow.

When I was an employer in Canada and we had the standard NL holiday/compensation package our employees were so happy, and other companies nearby cautioned me not to be too open about it lest it 'would spread' and their employees would demand similar. Employers do not tend to be on the same side as their employees in arguments like these (though they should be: happy employee = loyal employee).

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#65

Post by vidarh » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:08 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #16

sportanova wrote: post #5

I hope we start seeing more things like this, especially in the US. Does 6 hours a day maximize happiness / productivity? I don't know. Does 8 hours? It's the custom, but I don't know. I think it's almost impossible that 8 hours is the best number across every industry => vertical => company. I'd love to see more experimentation

As far as I know the 8h workday is purely the result of industrial three-shift work

No, it's the result of nearly a century of unions fighting tooth and nail.

The 8 hour working day was first promoted by Robert Owen in 1817, using the slogan "Eight hours labour, Eight hours recreation, Eight hours rest".

It was picked up by various unions and other organizations towards the middle of the century, such as the first International - the International Working Mens Association, where people like Marx and Bakunin were leading forces. But in most places they met fierce opposition, and many places it took decades of strikes and demonstrations and campaigning to push it through.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#66

Post by nandemo » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:13 AM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #50

bartkappenburg wrote: post #22

I'm Dutch and I work 4 days a week. My productivity in my startup is the same. This is what researchers say about our average number of hours per week: For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour. They pay higher taxes and earn less than Americans. But on average, they work roughly 11 weeks less than their American counterparts each year, have access to government-fun…

I'm a little confused by this statement: > For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour . If it's productivity per hour, doesn't that mean that the total productivity of Americans per week (or year) would be higher? Because as you're saying it, then Americans work 40h a week, and you work 30h a week, yet Americans are able to maintain the same level of productivity per…

I'm not the grandparent poster but, in this context, productivity is usually defined as $/hour worked or GDP/total hours worked (so "productivity per hour" is arguably redundant).

gp is saying that:

* Netherlands' productivity ($/hour) is on par with US' * during 1 year, the Dutch work less hours per capita * so GDP/capita is lower in Netherlands * but that's OK, because Europe

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#67

Post by vidarh » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:15 AM UTC

codehotter wrote: post #60

vidarh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it was left up to business, we had 14 hour+ days. It took many decades of extensive strikes and demonstrations, during which dozens of workers were killed, before the 8 hour day became the norm. The US union that is now the AFL-CIO leadership in pushing for the 8 hour day led directly to making May 1st the international day for labor demonstrations, in part in commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre. If…

You seem to know a lot about this and it's something I've always been interested in: When laws were passed to mandate 8 hour work days, what % of companies had 8 hour work days already? 10%? 20%? 80%? Nowadays we know that total productivity is higher if you have 8 hour work days, even though you work less total hours, because your productivity per hour is much higher. Was something like this known at the time? Or wa…

Pretty much nobody had 8 hour work days. One of the earliest known instances of someone demanding, and getting, an 8 hour workday was a English-born settler in New Zealand, who worked as a carpenter. In 1840, he negotiated an 8 hour working day for some building work, and he started arguing for it with other workers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Duncan_Parnell

Here's a PDF that gives some stats from 1890 until the 1930's: http://www.nber.org/chapters/c4124.pdf

Prior to the 1890's, it took decades to even get down to the 12, and then 10 hour workday.

I don't remember specifically when there started being actual research into the productivity effects of shorter work days, but it definitively was not known at the outset - at the outset, it was driven by workers rights movements.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#68

Post by oellegaard » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:33 AM UTC

justnotsure wrote: post #17

The innovative US economy will make it all irrelevant anyway by introducing more and more work from home jobs. Work from home is almost common in the US and basically non-existent in Europe. I wouldn't trade Swedish 6-hour workday with my American-based 8-hour while working from my coach at home. Somehow socialists are always one step behind Mother Nature, i.e. free markets.

The innovative Scandinavian economy has resulted in the highest general happiness for its citizens. Maybe you should consider why you actually work - is it because work is the best thing that every happened to you, or something you do so you can afford to take the rest of your time off and hangout with friends and/or family?

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#69

Post by pathy » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:33 AM UTC

symmetricsaurus wrote: post #29

Currently there is not much discussion about a general reduction of the work day to 6 hours in Sweden. If anything politicians are pushing for more work (though not longer days). Lower sick pay, later retirement and conversion of part time jobs to full time have been implemented or proposed. (Also, it is not Volvo Cars that is downsizing, it is Volvo Group).

MP just decided to go into the election with a 35 hour work day proposal. I also believe V and F! are in support of a work hour reduction to varying degrees.

So there is definitely a push to reduce the work day (Though possibly not to 6 hours).

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#70

Post by lloeki » Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 10:34 AM UTC

marvin wrote: post #55

wobbleblob wrote: post #47

> "though the United States is an outlier here, working both long and hard" The article conflates productivity with 'working hard'. Productivity is a measure of how much value is produced ('money is made') per hour of work. A bulldozer operator working an 8 hour day to move a few tons of dirt is more productive than a worker who needs many 12 hour work days to move the same amount of dirt with a shovel and wheelbarro…

They probably chose a poor word ("hard") for high productivity, but apart from that the point is sound: The US works a long longer hours with fewer holidays than many European countries. And there's good reason to believe that the results/hour coefficient is lower for each individual worker regardless, when the "hour" part of the equation is higher.

> results/hour coefficient

I think maybe we can make a bold move and call that metric 'efficiency'.