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Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

washingtonpost.com

41–50 of 272 posts

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#41

I'm Dutch and I work 4 days a week. My productivity in my startup is the same. This is what researchers say about our average number of hours per week: For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour. They pay higher taxes and earn less than Americans. But on average, they work roughly 11 weeks less than their American counterparts each year, have access to government-fun…

Without getting too much into it, it's always dangerous comparing different countries. I'm not trying to discredit you, but at times it can be apples and oranges because the amount of variables is incredible.

For example, consider when somebody asks, "Well, $country has light rail that's cheap, punctual, and goes everywhere. Why doesn't the U.S. have it?"

They ignore that the U.S. is the fourth largest country in the world by land area. The state of Oregon has roughly the same land area as the United Kingdom. While light rail may be something that's very good to have, it can be otherwise impractical for a country as large as the U.S.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#42
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

Then you'd have the 60 hour work week pretty quick.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#43
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

In this case, it's exactly as you say: the employer has decided to reduce its employees' working hours. It just happens that the employer is also the government. The experiment in Göteborg discussed in this article involves only municipal employees: the city is experimenting with moving its employees to 6-hour work days, and seeing what effect there is on productivity, morale, and other such measures. There's no requirement that other employers follow suit.

I believe even the 40-hour week is not statutory. At least in Denmark (maybe the same in Sweden?), the basic parameters of employment (maximum working hours, overtime pay, minimum wages, etc.), are negotiated between the employer's confederation and the union confederation, rather than set by statute. However, since the unionization rate is over 90% and the basic parameters are set through overall framework agreements (applying to all workplaces covered by the confederations, not separate company-by-company negotiations), these negotiated agreements de-facto set the conditions at almost all workplaces.

The Danish switch in 1992 from 40-hour to 37-hour weeks, for example, was entirely through union negotiations, not done by legislation.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#44
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

No, because business and employees are not in equal barguaining position. Business always have an advantage and in unregulated markets they are more than happy to take advantage of their power position.

On the other hand, you can see these regulations as a collective bargaining between employees and business. Individual employees have no negotiating power against any corporation, but they all together can elect a government that will have an upper hand there, so it's just market behaviours.

And no, what you said about 20 hours work week doesn't work like that. I believe that many employers would be happy to pay only 20 effective hours a week for a software engineers, but sorry, my workday consist of some time needed to concentrate, get in the flow, release some stress, let the brain work in the hammock time, and you also need to pay for this, since you won't get these effective 20 hours a week without these other 20 hours. It just doesn't work like that. Maybe I would agree to be paid only for 20 effective hours a week, but my rate in that case will easily go double.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#45
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

In theory you have a point, but historically speaking, individual businesses have been quite reluctant to allow shorter hours than what prevails in society. Progress on this metric almost always comes from societal movements and government intervention.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#46
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

When it was left up to business, we had 14 hour+ days. It took many decades of extensive strikes and demonstrations, during which dozens of workers were killed, before the 8 hour day became the norm.

The US union that is now the AFL-CIO leadership in pushing for the 8 hour day led directly to making May 1st the international day for labor demonstrations, in part in commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre.

If you want your employers to be able work less, nothing is stopping you most places. But experience is that not having an upper bound caused employers to take massive advantage.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#47
> "though the United States is an outlier here, working both long and hard"

The article conflates productivity with 'working hard'. Productivity is a measure of how much value is produced ('money is made') per hour of work.

A bulldozer operator working an 8 hour day to move a few tons of dirt is more productive than a worker who needs many 12 hour work days to move the same amount of dirt with a shovel and wheelbarrow. A trader at a bank who moves millions of shares with a phone call and a few mouse clicks is more productive than the bulldozer operator. Does this mean the banker works hardest and the guy with the shovel the least hard?

A high productivity per hour in a country means fewer ditches are dug using shovels, and more credit default swaps are sold. It doesn't mean people are working harder. It also doesn't necessarily mean the shovel digging country is organizing its economy less efficiently. Where the cost of labor is a few dollar per day, investing in a bulldozer might never pay off. Hiring 100 guys with shovels and wheelbarrows could be more efficient than hiring one guy with a bulldozer.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8 hours for work, 8 for leisure, 8 for sleep and 2 rest days a week seems reasonable, at least mathematically speaking. If it were up to me, I'd include commuting time in those 8 work hours as well, making the number no more than 7 hours.

You're basing your assessment of reasonableness on the aesthetically pleasing properties of symmetry? :-)

Not really. Eight hours for sleep covers almost everyone's biological requirements. It's hard to decide in what proportion to split the remaining 16. So split it 50-50 unless someone can propose something better!

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#49
post #39

Why does government set N hours at all ? It's must be up to business! E.g., if I have a software company, I want my employees to work 20 hours a week. Isn't it obviously better way for everyone?

In this case, it's exactly as you say: the employer has decided to reduce its employees' working hours. It just happens that the employer is also the government. The experiment in Göteborg discussed in this article involves only municipal employees: the city is experimenting with moving its employees to 6-hour work days, and seeing what effect there is on productivity, morale, and other such measures. There's no requ…

In the EU, all countries are bound by the Working Time Directive unless they have exemptions (I think only the UK has any major exemptions), which does not make the 40-hour week statutory, but does set an upper limit (with some exceptions) at 48 hours/week.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#50

I'm Dutch and I work 4 days a week. My productivity in my startup is the same. This is what researchers say about our average number of hours per week: For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour. They pay higher taxes and earn less than Americans. But on average, they work roughly 11 weeks less than their American counterparts each year, have access to government-fun…

I'm a little confused by this statement:

> For example, Dutch workers are on par with American workers in terms of productivity per hour.

If it's productivity per hour, doesn't that mean that the total productivity of Americans per week (or year) would be higher? Because as you're saying it, then Americans work 40h a week, and you work 30h a week, yet Americans are able to maintain the same level of productivity per hour.

So can you clarify whether it's really same productivity per hour, or whether you meant same productivity say..per week, or month, or year. Because if it's per week, then the Dutch productivity would have to be higher per hour than the American productivity, in order to be the same "per week".

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