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John Dee and the occult in California

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Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#41

Post by lotsofmangos »

ianstallings wrote: post #38
lotsofmangos wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to Newton. There is a fine line separating the various realms of the unknown and inventors are merely the most successful of the insane as they have made flesh of their delusions.

This is hardly Newton we're talking about or the unknown appearing as magic as Asimov pointed out all new technology might appear. No this is doing spells and trying to call on mystical powers. And where I'm from, that's called bullshit . If you want to practice science then do so. But don't pretend doing a spell led to a certain result because you "believe".

I agree that the methodology is somewhat suspect to say the least, but I also think that the impulse that leads folk to try and practice magic is more or less the same as the impulse that leads them to try and study science and which route you take is more often than not an accident of culture.

There are many examples other than Newton of scientists who were heavily involved in trying to do magic. Go look up the founder of the JPL and noted Thelemite occultist Jack Parsons, for instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_%28rocket_engineer...

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#42

Post by dang »

ianstallings wrote: post #38
lotsofmangos wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to Newton. There is a fine line separating the various realms of the unknown and inventors are merely the most successful of the insane as they have made flesh of their delusions.

This is hardly Newton we're talking about or the unknown appearing as magic as Asimov pointed out all new technology might appear. No this is doing spells and trying to call on mystical powers. And where I'm from, that's called bullshit . If you want to practice science then do so. But don't pretend doing a spell led to a certain result because you "believe".

http://www.wired.com/2014/05/newton-papers-q-and-a/

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#43

Post by dang »

benbreen wrote: post #29
ryan33 wrote: post #16

I don't particularly like the OTO because of the distortion of Enlightenment Era groups and Freemasonry. Crowley and some of the esoteric philosophies are interesting but there's not many concrete ideas there. John Fleming wrote a great book related to this called The Dark Side of the Enlightenment: Wizards, Alchemists, and Spiritual Seekers in the Age of Reason . There's a distinction between Freemasonry, philosophy…

Fleming on the Dark Side of the Enlightenment is great, I agree. But I wouldn't say his book is trying to separate the dross of ridiculous belief from the gold of "true" science or philosophy. What I take away from that book is a to me more interesting claim that Enlightenment ideals and methods have always been entangled with varieties of magical beliefs, be they utopian idealism or alchemy or (in a contemporary con…

Welcome to HN, by the way!

Aeon and The Appendix have both been sources of some excellent posts here. We'd like to see more such material—the more in-depth, the better. I'm excited to see what you do with The Appendix. There's a crying need for more substantive general-interest articles online.

HN has a largely technical orientation, but its mandate is for intellectual diversity and we're a little low on historical nutrients these days.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#44

Post by kefka »

ianstallings wrote: post #39
nwatson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentalist Christians are still seen in the U.S. as the "oppressing majority" that want to impose their belief system on others or want at least to make others feel bad for not adhering to their beliefs or not conforming to their moral code. This view is outdated. The Evangelical+Fundamentalist Christians had their latest political and cultural heyday in the 1980's with the "Moral Majority" movement. They've been…

Doing any form of magic is political suicide in mainstream politics. You might win a spot here and there but you will never have any pull in this country if you practice magic.

And political aspirations tend to wither away when one starts working with the occult.

You realize how significant and how insignificant one is. And as well, you focus on the betterment of oneself and your environment. Political energy and fervor seems at best tertiary. There are much more important things, like finding oneself.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#45

Post by h1karu »

ianstallings wrote: post #39
nwatson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentalist Christians are still seen in the U.S. as the "oppressing majority" that want to impose their belief system on others or want at least to make others feel bad for not adhering to their beliefs or not conforming to their moral code. This view is outdated. The Evangelical+Fundamentalist Christians had their latest political and cultural heyday in the 1980's with the "Moral Majority" movement. They've been…

Doing any form of magic is political suicide in mainstream politics. You might win a spot here and there but you will never have any pull in this country if you practice magic.

You're joking right ?

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#46

Post by krazydad »

ianstallings wrote: post #21
kefka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer, John Dee is a very interesting chap. He was well versed in Western Astrology, as well as the joint creator of a symbolic magic called Enochian Magic. He was also considered as Elizabeth's spy. For what there is in the occult, I really am surprised that more technologically minded people don't dabble. Things like Chaos Magic and the like are well suited for applying s…

Magic and science do not mix. That's why I don't dabble or anything else.

Dee was also doing real science, for example taking measurements of the super nova of 1572 and the comet that appeared 5 years later, and corresponding with Tycho about the same. Along with Tycho, he helped establish that the comet was further away than the moon, which helped dissuade people of the belief that all changes in the heavens happened between the moon and the earth.

If you are going to dismiss Dee on the basis of his irrational beliefs, than you must dismiss Newton, Tycho, Kepler and many others as well.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#47

Post by macavity23 »

midhir wrote: post #18
kefka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer, John Dee is a very interesting chap. He was well versed in Western Astrology, as well as the joint creator of a symbolic magic called Enochian Magic. He was also considered as Elizabeth's spy. For what there is in the occult, I really am surprised that more technologically minded people don't dabble. Things like Chaos Magic and the like are well suited for applying s…

The guys I know who stuck with this stuff got themselves involved in the modern OTO or gnostic ceremony or whatever. They aren't exactly what I'd call focussed people, they might not make great programmers. In all honesty, I couldn't get my head around it. They vocally rebel against their Catholic upbringing yet replace it with... dogmatic rituals based on Catholicism. It's notable about John Dee that he was doing th…

I'm not sure how you make 'the British elite inner circle' and 'a privileged, decadent society' two different categories :)
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