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Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

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Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#21

Post by rebelidealist »

patio11 wrote: post #14
rebelidealist wrote: post #12

CONTRACTS... even you don't have contract...THREATEN TO SUE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM. Emails are proof. Tell them your uncle graduated from Harvard Law. always take 50% deposit before you start. i've been consulting for over 4 years. sometimes you need to take out the hammer. Never be the victim, fight until you get your money back. If all else fails blog about what happened with proof. Use their real names. SEO the shit…

SEO the shit out of that blog post. This strategy will not redound in your favor with regards to securing mutually fulfilling relationships with good prospects, because it screams a) I'm a chump consultant, b) I will be difficult to work with, and c) there is a huge downside risk of employing me if we run into utterly routine speedbumps. (Freelancers may not perceive "not being paid in a timely fashion" as a speedbum…

Letting the client fuck you over by not paying is being a chump consultant?

Would clients delay payment for their attorney? How are tech consultants any different?

The demand for tech consultant is more than supply. You don't need any clients that are scared of working with you because you call out another client for not payment. There are plenty of work in the sea to put up with this.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#22

Post by tptacek »

rebelidealist wrote: post #20
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x this; this is what I think about every time I see one of those HN front-page posts where a designer has replaced someone's website with a complaint about non-payment.† Anyone on HN who hasn't consulted/freelanced for a year probably does not understand that 6-9 month payment delays aren't even unusual . This is, by the way, all the more reason not to count on returns from consulting sold to startups with less t…

Wow, I cannot believe how you guys are so accepting of MONTHS of delays in payment. It happens often, but it is a serious unprofessional offense that not be taken lightly. Your and your coworkers life are disrupted by cash flow issues. It is an insult to you and your coworker's hard work. Moreover, this is detrimental to our entire high tech consulting industry. We cannot make this acceptable behavior for clients. Th…

One good reason to accept MONTHS of delays and "serious unprofessional offenses" like this is that the delays are often part of the cost of working with the best, most lucrative clients.

If you want to constrain your consulting business to clients who will look you in the eyes, shake your hands, give you their word that you'll be paid 14 days after invoicing, and then keep that word, that's fine, but it's not a revenue-maximizing strategy, nor is it necessarily the strategy that will leave you with the most hair and the lowest blood pressure.

Not losing your shit over hiccups that are a natural part of the lifecycle of a serious customer is part of the distinction between a 1-2 person freelance-company-in-website-only and a 20-50 person consulting company. There's romance in working at the 1-2 person freelance shop, but I'd like to retire someday, so I choose not to freak out over accounts receivable.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#23

Post by napoleond »

rebelidealist wrote: post #21
patio11 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEO the shit out of that blog post. This strategy will not redound in your favor with regards to securing mutually fulfilling relationships with good prospects, because it screams a) I'm a chump consultant, b) I will be difficult to work with, and c) there is a huge downside risk of employing me if we run into utterly routine speedbumps. (Freelancers may not perceive "not being paid in a timely fashion" as a speedbum…

Letting the client fuck you over by not paying is being a chump consultant? Would clients delay payment for their attorney? How are tech consultants any different? The demand for tech consultant is more than supply. You don't need any clients that are scared of working with you because you call out another client for not payment. There are plenty of work in the sea to put up with this.

> Would clients delay payment for their attorney?

Yes, routinely! That's what Thomas and Patrick are getting at. For better or worse (and trust me, I've felt the "worse" side of it lately+) companies will, for a plethora of boring and stupid reasons, not always get their payables out on time. It's completely normal. They're not trying to screw you. It just happens. You can choose not to work with those companies, or to expend your energy toward making sure your clients always pay you right away, but that's a poor use of your time as a consultant.

What you should do instead is: (a) charge more and (b) consider adding interest on late payments. Lawyers and accountants do that, and then they don't really care if you're late paying because they've been charging you favourable (to them) interest.

+ I'm in the process of spinning down the consultant thing and getting a "normal" job again for a while, largely because of cash flow errors. It was one of several hard lessons learned, but that's partly why I bothered to comment: it's not realistic to expect good clients to change the way they do business for you, so you need to understand, accept, and plan for the reality of stuff like delayed payment.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#24

Post by andyakb »

BSousa wrote: post #8
sbntn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are contracts but no money. There's nothing to retrieve.. yet. So I'm stuck waiting for them to make money or raise.

For the future, use escrow. It just looks like you are working for companies that have no money to pay you (and prob. never will). If a company isn't willing to use escrow, run. They either don't have the money or are planning on not paying you anyway. It doesn't have to be for the whole thing, but at least until you have a relationship with them, use it. Start ups in SV (generalising) are run by kids with little hea…

Will serious companies actually post the money to an escrow? I dont have any experience with this directly, but cant imagine any company with say >100 employees would respond favorably to this request

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#25

Post by wikwocket »

rebelidealist wrote: post #12

CONTRACTS... even you don't have contract...THREATEN TO SUE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM. Emails are proof. Tell them your uncle graduated from Harvard Law. always take 50% deposit before you start. i've been consulting for over 4 years. sometimes you need to take out the hammer. Never be the victim, fight until you get your money back. If all else fails blog about what happened with proof. Use their real names. SEO the shit…

Using contracts and threatening action upon bad faith payment delays are great ideas and very useful.

But blogging about non-payers is a terrible idea. It will do nothing to help you. And if the case does go to arbitration or court, it will actually work against you, potentially even opening the door for damages done to the other party.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#26

Post by tptacek »

napoleond wrote: post #23
rebelidealist wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting the client fuck you over by not paying is being a chump consultant? Would clients delay payment for their attorney? How are tech consultants any different? The demand for tech consultant is more than supply. You don't need any clients that are scared of working with you because you call out another client for not payment. There are plenty of work in the sea to put up with this.

> Would clients delay payment for their attorney? Yes, routinely! That's what Thomas and Patrick are getting at. For better or worse (and trust me, I've felt the "worse" side of it lately+) companies will, for a plethora of boring and stupid reasons, not always get their payables out on time. It's completely normal. They're not trying to screw you. It just happens. You can choose not to work with those companies, or…

I don't know if the "late payments" thing works for anyone else, but speaking from my own limited experience: it's better to take any given business concern out of your client's hide in increased rate than to add any complexity to contracts.

To a one, the most lucrative clients all have contracts reviewed by house counsel, and many have purchasing departments trained to do nothing but review contracts. Anything remotely complicated you put in a contract is (a) going to get stripped out and (b) potentially going to add weeks to the amount of time it takes to get a master agreement in place; more than once, a few weeks delay in legal was all it took for the window of opportunity for a contract to pass.

At any rate: you are exactly right. Have you ever seen a thread where Patrick, me, or some other established consultant harangued HN about raising their rates, and about not setting rates based on some double-digit-percentage uplift of what their last full-time job was? This is why.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#27

Post by tptacek »

rebelidealist wrote: post #21
patio11 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEO the shit out of that blog post. This strategy will not redound in your favor with regards to securing mutually fulfilling relationships with good prospects, because it screams a) I'm a chump consultant, b) I will be difficult to work with, and c) there is a huge downside risk of employing me if we run into utterly routine speedbumps. (Freelancers may not perceive "not being paid in a timely fashion" as a speedbum…

Letting the client fuck you over by not paying is being a chump consultant? Would clients delay payment for their attorney? How are tech consultants any different? The demand for tech consultant is more than supply. You don't need any clients that are scared of working with you because you call out another client for not payment. There are plenty of work in the sea to put up with this.

Yes, clients will delay payments for their attorneys. I accidentally did that to mine after we sold our chump consultancy. For like, 5 months! Guess how upset my attorney was?

For that matter: guess what my chump consultancy does? You can click my profile and find my company pretty easily. How safe does it sound to stiff us on payments? And yet it happens all the time, to everyone, because that's how business works. It's why big consultancies have people in charge of invoicing, rev rec, and receivables.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#28

Post by BSousa »

andyakb wrote: post #24
BSousa wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the future, use escrow. It just looks like you are working for companies that have no money to pay you (and prob. never will). If a company isn't willing to use escrow, run. They either don't have the money or are planning on not paying you anyway. It doesn't have to be for the whole thing, but at least until you have a relationship with them, use it. Start ups in SV (generalising) are run by kids with little hea…

Will serious companies actually post the money to an escrow? I dont have any experience with this directly, but cant imagine any company with say >100 employees would respond favorably to this request

Those companies also usually pay part in advance. If you read a bit about other freelancers process (even here in HN there is a lot of advice) most will ask for some kind of advance.

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#29

Post by msantos »

rebelidealist wrote: post #12

CONTRACTS... even you don't have contract...THREATEN TO SUE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM. Emails are proof. Tell them your uncle graduated from Harvard Law. always take 50% deposit before you start. i've been consulting for over 4 years. sometimes you need to take out the hammer. Never be the victim, fight until you get your money back. If all else fails blog about what happened with proof. Use their real names. SEO the shit…

whatever you do, do not do this => http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fs2YDn-8y5g/Uh1cc2QtYJI/AAAAAAAACD... (IMO that's incredibly unprofessional)

Re: Ask HN: Are Startups Exploiting Freelancers?

#30

Post by [deleted] »

patio11 wrote: post #14
rebelidealist wrote: post #12

CONTRACTS... even you don't have contract...THREATEN TO SUE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM. Emails are proof. Tell them your uncle graduated from Harvard Law. always take 50% deposit before you start. i've been consulting for over 4 years. sometimes you need to take out the hammer. Never be the victim, fight until you get your money back. If all else fails blog about what happened with proof. Use their real names. SEO the shit…

SEO the shit out of that blog post. This strategy will not redound in your favor with regards to securing mutually fulfilling relationships with good prospects, because it screams a) I'm a chump consultant, b) I will be difficult to work with, and c) there is a huge downside risk of employing me if we run into utterly routine speedbumps. (Freelancers may not perceive "not being paid in a timely fashion" as a speedbum…

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