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It's time for the US to use the metric system

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Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#201

Post by Turing_Machine »

talideon wrote: post #197
Turing_Machine wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that standard, the U.S. liquid measures could also be described as "metric". 2 cups->pint, 2 pints->quart, 2 quarts->pottle (rarely used, more commonly called a "half gallon"), 2 pottles->gallon.

You appear not to understand the actual utility behind the page width/height ratio used in ISO/DIN page sizes. Also, the word "metric" has a very precise meaning: that of being part of the internationally agreed system of decimal measurements. The thing you've mentioned don't fit that definition, and US customary units are simply defined in _terms_ of metric units, but are not metric units themselves.

"You appear not to understand the actual utility behind the page width/height ratio used in ISO/DIN page sizes."

I do understand it. It's exactly the same reasoning as being able to divide liquid measures in half.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#202

Post by talideon »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #201
talideon wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear not to understand the actual utility behind the page width/height ratio used in ISO/DIN page sizes. Also, the word "metric" has a very precise meaning: that of being part of the internationally agreed system of decimal measurements. The thing you've mentioned don't fit that definition, and US customary units are simply defined in _terms_ of metric units, but are not metric units themselves.

"You appear not to understand the actual utility behind the page width/height ratio used in ISO/DIN page sizes." I do understand it. It's exactly the same reasoning as being able to divide liquid measures in half.

No. Here's what you wrote:

> By that standard, the U.S. liquid measures could also be described as "metric"

The ratio has nothing to do with metric. The base sizing of the A0 page is, on the other hand, defined as having an area of 1m² in that regard, DIN/ISO paper sizes are _based_ on metric. However, _never_ did I state that they _were_ metric.

So no, by the standard that I gave, you _couldn't_ say that US customary measurements for liquid measures could also be described as "metric".

Go back and read my original comment. The first sentence was this:

> They're not part of the metric system, simply based on it.

Here I was making reference to A0 sheets being defined as having an area of 1m², thus the sheet sizes are _derived_ from metric, not _part_ of the metric system.

The next sentence was a _completely_ independent statement about the utility of the page ratio used in ISO/DIN paper sizes:

> The 1:sqrt(2) ratio used is extremely convenient as it scales up and down nicely, and the other series are such that an Ax sheet fits nicely into a Cx envelope, and a Cx sheet fits nicely into a Bx envelope.

I can't fathom how you somehow got from an innocuous pair of statements about paper sizes to powers of two in US customary measurements for liquids somehow being "metric".

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#203

Post by Turing_Machine »

talideon wrote: post #202
Turing_Machine wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You appear not to understand the actual utility behind the page width/height ratio used in ISO/DIN page sizes." I do understand it. It's exactly the same reasoning as being able to divide liquid measures in half.

No. Here's what you wrote: > By that standard, the U.S. liquid measures could also be described as "metric" The ratio has nothing to do with metric. The base sizing of the A0 page is, on the other hand, defined as having an area of 1m² in that regard, DIN/ISO paper sizes are _based_ on metric. However, _never_ did I state that they _were_ metric. So no, by the standard that I gave, you _couldn't_ say that US customar…

U.S. units are defined in terms of metric units.

The official definition of the inch is 2.54 cm (exactly).

An inch isn't a nice round number of cm, but neither is an A(whatever) piece of paper (other than A0). A4 is 21.0 cm × 29.7 cm. for instance.

"The next sentence was a _completely_ independent statement about the utility of the page ratio used in ISO/DIN paper sizes"

And I pointed out that the exact same argument applies to U.S. liquid measures. They're easy to divide or multiply by two.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#204

Post by [deleted] »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #203
talideon wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Here's what you wrote: > By that standard, the U.S. liquid measures could also be described as "metric" The ratio has nothing to do with metric. The base sizing of the A0 page is, on the other hand, defined as having an area of 1m² in that regard, DIN/ISO paper sizes are _based_ on metric. However, _never_ did I state that they _were_ metric. So no, by the standard that I gave, you _couldn't_ say that US customar…

U.S. units are defined in terms of metric units. The official definition of the inch is 2.54 cm (exactly). An inch isn't a nice round number of cm, but neither is an A(whatever) piece of paper (other than A0). A4 is 21.0 cm × 29.7 cm. for instance. "The next sentence was a _completely_ independent statement about the utility of the page ratio used in ISO/DIN paper sizes" And I pointed out that the exact same argument…

[deleted]

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#205

Post by talideon »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #203
talideon wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Here's what you wrote: > By that standard, the U.S. liquid measures could also be described as "metric" The ratio has nothing to do with metric. The base sizing of the A0 page is, on the other hand, defined as having an area of 1m² in that regard, DIN/ISO paper sizes are _based_ on metric. However, _never_ did I state that they _were_ metric. So no, by the standard that I gave, you _couldn't_ say that US customar…

U.S. units are defined in terms of metric units. The official definition of the inch is 2.54 cm (exactly). An inch isn't a nice round number of cm, but neither is an A(whatever) piece of paper (other than A0). A4 is 21.0 cm × 29.7 cm. for instance. "The next sentence was a _completely_ independent statement about the utility of the page ratio used in ISO/DIN paper sizes" And I pointed out that the exact same argument…

Ok. I'll be super explicit about this. The page measurements don't matter. What matters is that all the standard page sizes have exactly the same width:height ratio when halved or doubled to obtain the next size up and down. That's the magic property that the 1:sqrt(2) width:height ratio used in the ISO/DIN page sizes gives you. The fact that an A0 sheet is defined as having an area of 1m² is a distraction. It's the width:height ratio that matters.

Your comparison to liquid measurements misses the point. It's irrelevant. Your statement that the US units are defined in terms of US units is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the preservation of the width:height ratio between pages sizes in the ISO/DIN paper size series.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#206

Post by Turing_Machine »

talideon wrote: post #205
Turing_Machine wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. units are defined in terms of metric units. The official definition of the inch is 2.54 cm (exactly). An inch isn't a nice round number of cm, but neither is an A(whatever) piece of paper (other than A0). A4 is 21.0 cm × 29.7 cm. for instance. "The next sentence was a _completely_ independent statement about the utility of the page ratio used in ISO/DIN paper sizes" And I pointed out that the exact same argument…

Ok. I'll be super explicit about this. The page measurements don't matter. What matters is that all the standard page sizes have exactly the same width:height ratio when halved or doubled to obtain the next size up and down. That's the magic property that the 1:sqrt(2) width:height ratio used in the ISO/DIN page sizes gives you. The fact that an A0 sheet is defined as having an area of 1m² is a distraction. It's the…

"That's the magic property that the 1:sqrt(2) width:height ratio used in the ISO/DIN page sizes gives you."

Which is very similar to the "magic property" that you get when you have measuring units that are powers of two rather than factors of ten. So, no, I"m not "missing the point" at all.

That you think this is "irrelevant" indicates to me that you haven't done a lot of cooking.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#207

Post by Shorel »

oneandoneis2 wrote: post #14
Shorel wrote: post #7

Good luck trying to change something that's part of a cultural identity. Irish are catholic not because religion is actually something positive, but because it's a contrast with the British church, and part of their cultural identity.

You realize every country that uses metric today used a different system before? The US is not a special snowflake: The entire rest of the world managed to switch just fine.

I'm not defending the US imperial system.

They can switch if they want. But it's the only place in the world they actively try not to.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#208

Post by Shorel »

alphadevx wrote: post #60
Shorel wrote: post #7

Good luck trying to change something that's part of a cultural identity. Irish are catholic not because religion is actually something positive, but because it's a contrast with the British church, and part of their cultural identity.

> Irish are catholic not because religion is actually something positive, but because it's a contrast with the British church, and part of their cultural identity. Hmmm, I think you'll find that Catholicism is older than the Church of England (not that this relates to the metric system in any way). The English changed from being Catholic to Church of England during Henry VIII's reign. The Irish largely remained Catho…

Catholicism started as a counter reform to Marcionism, including the Torah again in the Bible and rejecting some Gnostic concepts still prevalent in Paulism.

This was at least a century (the dating is not precise) before Saint Patrick converted Ireland to Christianism, and specially, many centuries before the creation of Church of England.

I don't see what part of my observation about 21 century Ireland made you think that I presupposed the Church of England was older. That part of history is even on TV (The Tudors).

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#209

Post by Shorel »

dmoo wrote: post #35
Shorel wrote: post #7

Good luck trying to change something that's part of a cultural identity. Irish are catholic not because religion is actually something positive, but because it's a contrast with the British church, and part of their cultural identity.

Ireland moved from miles to kilometers for all road signs recently, no big deal; changed currency, no big deal. People adapt.

I'm very glad to learn that.

Re: It's time for the US to use the metric system

#210

Post by talideon »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #206
talideon wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. I'll be super explicit about this. The page measurements don't matter. What matters is that all the standard page sizes have exactly the same width:height ratio when halved or doubled to obtain the next size up and down. That's the magic property that the 1:sqrt(2) width:height ratio used in the ISO/DIN page sizes gives you. The fact that an A0 sheet is defined as having an area of 1m² is a distraction. It's the…

"That's the magic property that the 1:sqrt(2) width:height ratio used in the ISO/DIN page sizes gives you." Which is very similar to the "magic property" that you get when you have measuring units that are powers of two rather than factors of ten. So, no, I"m not "missing the point" at all. That you think this is "irrelevant" indicates to me that you haven't done a lot of cooking.

Yes you are, because _this has nothing to do with factors of ten vs factors of two_. This is nothing to do with US customary units vs metric. _The units are irrelevant._ That's what you're not getting. What is relevant is that the same page width/height ratio is maintained between the different page sizes.
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