The case for eating steak and cream • Hacker News Board

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#61

Post by girvo » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:19 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #53

sp332 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fasting accounts for the calories in, what about the calories out?

If I understand intermittent fasting correctly, you eat the same amount (so calories in/calories out don't change), you just don't eat for a part of the day (e.g. 12 hours) or every second day and eat that much more in the "allowed" window.

Whoah interesting. That's been how I've eaten for a number of years now, through nothing other than a quirk with how I feel hungry. Odd, very odd. I wonder if thats why my weight (I'm slender but fit, despite not exercising as much as I want to) stays exactly the same. But then, I'm also fairly young (heading into my mid-20's), so a quick metabolism and the fact I'm likely still growing helps too. Just interesting to think about though!

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#62

Post by DanBC » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:20 PM UTC

I am one of the people who thinks that "calories out > calories in" is most important. I've tried (in the spirit of Feynman) to poke holes in this, so here's the stuff that would persuade me I'm wrong.

1) satiety. Some foods make you feel full, so even though they're "fat" you eat less. (This doesn't counter CO>CI but explains why people fail at it).

2) abysmal quality of research on weight loss. Lots of the research is poor quality and we really don't know what works. Better quality research is always a good thing.

3) gut flora and genetics. Genetics plays a role in everything so I'm sure that it is easier for some people to be fat than others because genes. We know that some gut flora helps some people stay slim. Nwe know that some other gut flora helps some people become fat. A double whammy would be unfortunate.

4) evil food industry. Seeing a bag of sugar (in whatever form, but especially candy) sold as "LOW FAT FOOD!!!" is infuriating. I tend to ignore the HFS arguments but I agree that the vast amounts of sugar eaten today is very harmful. Making food "hyper paletable" and making it seem like it is much quicker to get that food than prepare your own healthy food has done a lot of harm. (See popcorn chicken cersus a roast chicken).

5) judgementalism. CO>CI may be true but it is simplistic and it is often given with judgemental messages. As HN middlebrow dismissal shows contrarianism is human nature, thus saying "CO>CI! Develop some willpower, go for a jog!" Will devolve into discussion about a bunch of stuff. People like me need to find a better way to deliver that message.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#63

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:35 PM UTC

Borkdude wrote: post #13

hueving wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's as simple as calories in, calories out This is definitely true, if you eat less calories than you burn, you will lose weight. But this is really hard to enforce for many people. Without blatant calorie labels on everything you eat, it's really easy to go over and then assume that it must not be true.

That, and the fact that most natural high carb foods, like fruits, vegetables, legumes and whole grains have a low calorie density compared to high fat foods. It's much harder to overeat on them, because they have more volume and fiber.

Whole grains and legumes have tremendously high calorie density. An ounce of peanuts has as many calories as four slices of bacon.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#64

Post by steveklabnik » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:39 PM UTC

nashequilibrium wrote: post #41

steveklabnik wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There actually are people on long-term keto diets. It's actually used to help certain kinds of epilepsy, for example.

Maybe in extreme cases, read this docs blog, he has done keto for a long time but i noticed he has now changed up and only does it at certain times. Also he has a lot of stuff on keto. http://eatingacademy.com/personal/actually-eat-part-iii-circ...

As with anything, it depends. I'm also not suggesting that keto is harmless long-term, just that it's not inherently harmful. Several sections of the Wikipedia article are instructive: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#65

Post by logicallee » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:41 PM UTC

mudil wrote: post #10

I eat fat, and look, I am still alive!

Man, you would make the world's fastest doctor. "Hello Mr. Johnson, great to see you again. Let's have a quick look here. And...yep... looks like you're still alive. Now, if you'll just sign here. And, we're all set. Keep up the good work! Next!"

seriously though being alive is an accomplishment for most organisms in the 3.45 billion year history of life on Earth, an accomplishment in the vicious wild, and an accomplishment for civilized humans in the face of tragedy, neglect, disaster, disease, war, or certain human-caused problems (violence etc).

In industrialized nations, today, being alive at all is a goal few people would set for themselves who are lucky enough to enjoy health and basic freedom from war, poverty, famine, natural disaster, violence, etc.

While I don't mean to detract from your life's amibtions, you are entitled to them, I think you can almost certainly have higher ambitions than being alive.

Of course, I don't know you personally, so who am I to say? Congratulations on what you have accomplished.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#66

Post by jsdalton » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:42 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #62

I am one of the people who thinks that "calories out > calories in" is most important. I've tried (in the spirit of Feynman) to poke holes in this, so here's the stuff that would persuade me I'm wrong. 1) satiety. Some foods make you feel full, so even though they're "fat" you eat less. (This doesn't counter CO>CI but explains why people fail at it). 2) abysmal quality of research on weight loss. Lots of the research…

6) Insulin response. Carbohydrates trigger insulin production, which causes cells to store more fat. See http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/opinion/sunday/always-hung...

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#67

Post by TTPrograms » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:42 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #59

The other day at work I caved and went for a pub-lunch, a burger with cheese, served with chips and coleslaw. I enjoyed it but immediately afterwards thought 'damn, that was greasy,' and remembered my marathon running colleague who always refrains from going for a 'crappy burger' with us. But here's the thing: I didn't feel hungry for the rest of the day. In fact I skipped dinner completely, just went for long walk r…

This has been my experience with low carb - I can eat a high protein, high fat meal that will stuff me and be ~1000 calories, but I'll be satisfied for at least the rest of the day if not most of the next. Even if it's just calories in / calories out it's a clear win over my normal diet.

Of course people used to think this long fasting is really bad (my parents, for example), but it seems like new research says it's fine, if not healthy for weight loss.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#68

Post by eliben » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:53 PM UTC

Andys wrote: post #47

zt wrote: post #8

I have been participating in a Stanford Medical research study since October. The name of the randomized control study is "One Diet Does Not Fit All" ( http://nutrition.stanford.edu/projects/DietbyGenotype-Study.... ). The basic premise of the study is that as almost everyone has one of two insulin responses to glucose and that if you have one response, you should be on a low-fat diet, and if you have the other, you…

> it's as simple as calories in, calories out I recently saw a study that was a great example of why it isn't this simple: Intermittent fasting, with the same average daily calories consumed, resulted in more rapid weight loss than no fasting.

Interesting. This actually seems to be in line with the low carb approach which claims that fats starts getting burned only after all the carbs are gone. It's less extreme though, in the sense that true "keto" approaches say a few days are needed to enter a true ketonic state with very low carb consumption.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#69

Post by ido » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 1:56 PM UTC

taejo wrote: post #31

ido wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in Central Europe are you? I lived in Vienna and now living In Berlin, and while it was a bit of a struggle being vegetarian in the former it think over here there are actually quite a lot of good options (obviously not anywhere near as good as some other places like San Francisco).

As large, relatively "hip" capital cities, Berlin and Vienna are probably a "best case". In the German-speaking countries, there does seem to be a growing awareness and interest in vegetarianism, but in small cities in Germany I find my options in restaurants basically limited to pasta and pizza -- and of course falafel -- (though there are enough vegetarians and similar that there are shops selling tofu, vegan chees…

Yes for sure - the local cuisine is heavy on meat & dairy so you'll have to rely on ethnic and speciality places, which mostly exist in the big metropolitan cities.

Re: The case for eating steak and cream

#70

Post by eliben » Sun, Jun 01, 2014, 2:00 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #59

The other day at work I caved and went for a pub-lunch, a burger with cheese, served with chips and coleslaw. I enjoyed it but immediately afterwards thought 'damn, that was greasy,' and remembered my marathon running colleague who always refrains from going for a 'crappy burger' with us. But here's the thing: I didn't feel hungry for the rest of the day. In fact I skipped dinner completely, just went for long walk r…

I can second this. It's actually quite easy to test on yourself. Try two kinds of breakfast for a few days each, and compare how much snacking you want to do before lunch:

1. Bagels + scone 2. Eggs + bacon

For me, the second kind undeniably leads to less hunger later in the morning. After a breakfast of 4 scrambled eggs + 4 strips of bacon (so 550-600 cal) I can easily not feel hungry at all until lunch. Couple of small bagels with some cream cheese + scone (also ~550-600 cal) and I feel much less full after a couple of hours.