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Getting to work on diversity at Google

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Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#241

Post by notduncansmith »

wutbrodo wrote: post #233
notduncansmith wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As early product testers, absolutely. It's one thing to put yourself "in the user's shoes" as far as unfamiliarity with a product, it's another entirely to pretend to have 30-50 fewer IQ points. This could produce some valuable insights :)

I think you might be missing the point of his comparison. The claim he's discussing is that your workforce overall should reflect your customer base, not that your product testers (much more directly related to the customer base) should reflect it. What throwaway54984 is saying is that this claim doesn't seem to hold water, through the counterexample of diversity of IQ. Dismissing it with "it only works if you limit…

I wasn't disagreeing with the assertion he was making; my comment was intended to complement the point, not refute it. Apologies for not making that more clear.

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#242

Post by groby_b »

wutbrodo wrote: post #234
swampangel wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No research here, just opinions: "Representation" might be a better word than "role model". Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. You can imagine that person overcame many of the same obstacles that you face. People point to Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerburg to show that you don't need a comp sci degree to be a coder and an innovator. These examples are use…

> Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. This is the part that's kind of weird to me. Wouldn't this only be true of people with too much emphasis on superficial characteristics? I grant that there are many people like this, but we usually get a lot more info about people than just gender, race, etc. If a potential CS student reads about Zuckerberg and Pag…

White males, as a group, are fairly intimidating to other groups (and often behave in exclusionary ways).

This is not an issue of "reducing to single characteristics", but of power imbalance. I can't speak for other minorities, but a lot of women are experiencing discrimination from men in some way in some place in their lives. Try looking at #YesAllWomen on twitter if you want more details.

And so it's meaningful to set an example that says "While this profession currently predominantly male, we do accept minorities, and there are many non-white/non-male people in our industry who succeeded". That is what the role model part is about - clearly communicating that it's not a clique. That privilege is at least somewhat addressed.

If there were black privilege in the NBA, yes, it'd be a lot scarier for white athletes to get in there. Looking at the odd fact that by far most quarterbacks are white (75% of them right now, and the fact that it's so low is celebrated), I think we're far from that point.

But even if we leave out the debate around privilege and pretend for the moment that it doesn't exist: Being in a minority leads to a lot of shared experiences. A creative woman interested in CS, but not in the field has more in common with other women than she has with a guy interested in exploring CS.

There are more shared experiences the longer you share that interest, and the differences vanish. But at the point where it's about getting into CS, these differences matter. And seeing somebody who is "just like you" matters, on a psychological level.

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#243

Post by swampangel »

wutbrodo wrote: post #234
swampangel wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No research here, just opinions: "Representation" might be a better word than "role model". Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. You can imagine that person overcame many of the same obstacles that you face. People point to Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerburg to show that you don't need a comp sci degree to be a coder and an innovator. These examples are use…

> Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. This is the part that's kind of weird to me. Wouldn't this only be true of people with too much emphasis on superficial characteristics? I grant that there are many people like this, but we usually get a lot more info about people than just gender, race, etc. If a potential CS student reads about Zuckerberg and Pag…

It shouldn't be the main deciding factor, but it helps. It's a signal like any other, although because it's superficial, it might be something you pick up on earlier.

Most people aren't driven to just one career path in life. They start out with a few different options that narrow as they get older. Given that, if you are investigating two careers, and they both have lots of creative tinkerers, but one of them has many more people that match up with your race and gender, is it unreasonable to factor that in to your decision?

White people don't have much historical evidence that they will receive poor treatment in the NBA or the jazz community because they're white. But black people and women do have reasons to pay special attention to signals that they might not be well received in a certain community/industry/workplace. It's not their fault for being aware of that.

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#244

Post by Dewie »

kaitai wrote: post #221
Dewie wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I though that people should give X more of a chance in hiring, because they shouldn't assume anything about X's background just because they are X. Now, at the same time, people say that we should hire X because they have a different background. That sounds like a fun backroom conversation in cases where the diversity-part doesn't work out - "We hired that black guy because we wanted more diversity on the team.…

Don't worry so much: your black guy (or woman) can never escape his (her) fate in America! I don't think you have to worry about the being pulled over while driving, followed by shopping, and arrested when trying to get into one's own house stopping soon.

Yes. And what's your point?

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#245

Post by crazypyro »

groby_b wrote: post #232
crazypyro wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are role models in CS (and even other industries) really what drives people to pursue the career? Just looking at my own experience, its hard to pinpoint a "role model". I'm curious why there is always such a huge focus on role models (is it a grandfathered idea from the past?) and not on the herd of other problems, such as access to tools, ease of self-learning and targeted tutorials at under-represented demographic…

What swampangel already said, essentially. It's not about having somebody you look up to all the time, but just knowing you're not alone. It might not sound like a big deal, but believe me, when you're the only woman on a 20-person team, it gets lonely. But I'd argue that you're correct in your judgment of famous role models, specifically. What's needed is not the few famous ones, but knowledge that an average person…

You're right about the pinkwashing. I didn't mean for it to sound as bad as it did.

Having a much younger little sister sort of led me to that comment. I'd enjoy if there was some way to teach her programming that she would also enjoy and undeniably, for her, it would be something stereo-typically associated with what young girls like (cute creatures, bright colors, etc.). Obviously girls, just like boys, have much more diverse interests than what society sees as the "standard", but it just seems that something targeted at stereotypical young "girl-y" interests (forgive me for using girly and not a more descriptive term) is missing, while there is lots of tutorials for stuff that is more stereo-typically associated with other demographics.

Hope that explained it without coming off as sexist or discriminatory. If not, I tried.

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#246

Post by groby_b »

crazypyro wrote: post #245
groby_b wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What swampangel already said, essentially. It's not about having somebody you look up to all the time, but just knowing you're not alone. It might not sound like a big deal, but believe me, when you're the only woman on a 20-person team, it gets lonely. But I'd argue that you're correct in your judgment of famous role models, specifically. What's needed is not the few famous ones, but knowledge that an average person…

You're right about the pinkwashing. I didn't mean for it to sound as bad as it did. Having a much younger little sister sort of led me to that comment. I'd enjoy if there was some way to teach her programming that she would also enjoy and undeniably, for her, it would be something stereo-typically associated with what young girls like (cute creatures, bright colors, etc.). Obviously girls, just like boys, have much m…

No worries, I didn't take it as discriminatory (or sexist). It's hard to see what "other" people need, and it's easy to fall into the stereotype trap :)

FWIW, I don't object to activities considered stereotypical per se. By all means, create a "how to animate My Little Pony" workshop. Or remote controlled sewing machines.

Just don't attach "for girls". The issue is not the activity, but associating it with a demographic instead of letting it stand on its own. (And lest we forget, guys suffer from the same stereotyping - it's considered uncool by many for a guy to do anything remotely "soft and cuddly". Let's not reinforce)

I'm curious - have you asked your sister what kinds of things she would enjoy? What programming means to her, or why she would/would not consider getting into it?

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#247

Post by ArkyBeagle »

groby_b wrote: post #72
Torgo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response was flippant, which is probably why some people have been downvoting it, but I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population. But at the same time, it's hardly their fault or responsibility to "fix" it if universities just aren't graduating people in those proportions. This came right after I'd read a PBS article that claimed "Google finally disclos…

No, it's not Google's job, but Google is in a good position to fix upstream. One of the things you repeatedly hear from girls/young women considering CS is that there are no role models. Sending female engineers to university events is a small step, but it can have huge impact. In a nutshell, it's playing the long game :)

I am not so sure.

I have two daughters. Both love computers, but will never go that way. Both are fearless about traditionally male pursuits; hunting (bow and speargun), fishing, mechanic-ing, surfing, dog training, ranching stuff.... one brought home A SHARK she'd speared. It was delicious.

One's a master of one of the big stats packages (SPSS? I forget) and the like ( was in a bio PhD program; got out with a Masters before she crippled her career prospects ).

Yawn.

It just does nothing for them. My extremely biased sample says "girls just aren't as likely to want to code." Trust me, I tried. Nope. Perhaps reverse psychology would have worked....

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#248

Post by wutbrodo »

notduncansmith wrote: post #241
wutbrodo wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be missing the point of his comparison. The claim he's discussing is that your workforce overall should reflect your customer base, not that your product testers (much more directly related to the customer base) should reflect it. What throwaway54984 is saying is that this claim doesn't seem to hold water, through the counterexample of diversity of IQ. Dismissing it with "it only works if you limit…

I wasn't disagreeing with the assertion he was making; my comment was intended to complement the point, not refute it. Apologies for not making that more clear.

oh my b. Totally agree with your comment without the underlying point I (wrongly) assumed it was making.

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#249

Post by wutbrodo »

groby_b wrote: post #242
wutbrodo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. This is the part that's kind of weird to me. Wouldn't this only be true of people with too much emphasis on superficial characteristics? I grant that there are many people like this, but we usually get a lot more info about people than just gender, race, etc. If a potential CS student reads about Zuckerberg and Pag…

White males, as a group, are fairly intimidating to other groups (and often behave in exclusionary ways). This is not an issue of "reducing to single characteristics", but of power imbalance. I can't speak for other minorities, but a lot of women are experiencing discrimination from men in some way in some place in their lives. Try looking at #YesAllWomen on twitter if you want more details. And so it's meaningful to…

> If there were black privilege in the NBA

> most quarterbacks are white

The NBA is the National Basketball Association. The football one is the NFL. Not that this directly addresses your point or anything but that was bugging me haha sorry...

> But even if we leave out the debate around privilege

Oh thank god you said this. I haven't yet been able to figure out how the common usage of privilege [1] in such discussions is nothing more than people trying to justify the use of classical racism and sexism in the rhetorical service of those who aren't typically the beneficiaries of such disgusting tactics. And far more often than not, any attempt to think critically about these tactics is met with "you just don't get it, probably a white male" [wrong].

> Being in a minority leads to a lot of shared experiences. A creative woman interested in CS, but not in the field has more in common with other women than she has with a guy interested in exploring CS.

This is a really good point, consider me pretty much convinced. As much as we might not _want_ one's gender or race to define one's experiences, the fact remains that it still does, upstream. My assumption was that "shared love of CS" was enough of an experience to relate to someone on a non-stereotype basis, but I can totally see how that could not be true in many cases.

[1] Note that I'm not talking about the concept of privilege per se; it's been YEARS that I've been baffled by the fact that so many people are just completely unaware of the fact that success (and many other things) is (partially) a function of many many external factors that are easy to dismiss for those who aren't handicapped by them (poverty, certain sexualities, being in certain racial minorities, being female (in some contexts), being male (in others)).

Re: Getting to work on diversity at Google

#250

Post by wutbrodo »

swampangel wrote: post #243
wutbrodo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply, it helps to see someone who is superficially similar to you in a job/role that you aspire to. This is the part that's kind of weird to me. Wouldn't this only be true of people with too much emphasis on superficial characteristics? I grant that there are many people like this, but we usually get a lot more info about people than just gender, race, etc. If a potential CS student reads about Zuckerberg and Pag…

It shouldn't be the main deciding factor, but it helps. It's a signal like any other, although because it's superficial, it might be something you pick up on earlier. Most people aren't driven to just one career path in life. They start out with a few different options that narrow as they get older. Given that, if you are investigating two careers, and they both have lots of creative tinkerers, but one of them has ma…

I take your general point (and between you and groby_b, I feel like a lot of my concerns were actually addressed), but for the life of me I really don't understand the fact that people keep replacing "someone" in my hypotheticals with "White people". I didn't say anything about a white person staying out of jazz due to black people: the person in my example could've been white or non-white hispanic or east asian or middle eastern or native american or aboriginal or south asian or...
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