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So a female programmer walks into a bar…

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Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#121

Post by enraged_camel »

chc wrote: post #101
enraged_camel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he is trying to say is that their cruelty manifests as sexism. As in, they perceive the target's sex as the lowest-hanging fruit that they can attack, and they know it is likely to hurt the target, so they go for it. It's like making fun of someone because they are short. That doesn't make someone a "shortist." It just shows that they are cruel human beings. I see sexism as more of a fundamental belief.…

The idea that somebody must have logically thought about sexism before they can be sexist is bizarre. If I just feel in my gut that women are inferior and never give it any further thought, how on earth is that not sexist?

I didn't say "logically." I said they thought it was a logical thought process, whereas what really happened is that they made their decision first ("women are inferior") based on some gut feeling, and then rationalized it.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#122

Post by vectorpush »

lmm wrote: post #96
vectorpush wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, more like weak inferences Indeed, quite weak; weak to the point of being useless. In ten years of programming, I've only worked with two developers who were comfortable with the use of regular expressions, both were women... what does that tell me about women? Nothing. Similarly, whatever experiences you've had with female programmers who are "worse than the average male" programmer is pretty clearly worthless (f…

You're right that two probably isn't enough for a significant result - though it might be, if the effect size is large enough. How large was the rest of your sample, and how big was the difference? I won't stoop to insults the way you did, but are you really not even curious about these kind of differences?

I won't stoop to insults the way you did

How noble of you. You're right though. I apologize for disparaging your faculties of logic, it was tongue in cheek but wholly unnecessary.

though it might be, if the effect size is large enough. How large was the rest of your sample, and how big was the difference?

How can effect size be determined when we don't even know what is being measured? What is the criteria for determining the quality of a programmer? How is that criteria applied? Are there controls for education? exposure to programming as a child? years of experience? quality of experience? quality of tools available to the programmer? quality of the work environment in which we seek to evaluate the programmer's quality? It's reasonable for one to leverage professional experience in judging the skill level of colleagues, but it'd be foolish to think that those observations can be generalized across an arbitrary dimension of the programmer population (such as gender, or race, or political leaning).

are you really not even curious about these kind of differences?

I guess? I'm always eager to learn more, but I don't really find the question of programmer aptitude as a function of gender very interesting since I can't identify anything unique about programming that would suggest either gender would be qualitatively predisposed to the craft.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#123

Post by thumbtackthief »

dominotw wrote: post #75
mindcrime wrote: post #19

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers”. I really don't understand guys who say (or think) shit like this. Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid . I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years, and I've never seen any reason…

I am an Indian who has had (multiple) people say ( a version of) "Go back to answering phones" There will always be bigots and douchebags everywhere. People who say this stuff don't matter to me and people who matter do say shit like that.

It's good that you're strong enough, mature enough, wise enough to ignore that kind of idiocy. The problem is for the weaker, younger, more naive person that hears it and takes it seriously.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#124

Post by thumbtackthief »

mgkimsal wrote: post #67
sanderjd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha, and you just made fun of ColdFusion developers in just the same fashion!

Not specifically. It was more an issue of CF typically being kicked around - they're the last people I'd have thought would be wanting to kick others around. But I guess everyone wants to put someone else down.

You will sadly find that the more a person or group is oppressed, the more likely they are to do it to others.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#125

Post by AnimalMuppet »

res0nat0r wrote: post #69
chc wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you just said here. Because homeowner's insurance policies allow riders for defense against defamation lawsuits, you shouldn't talk about your experience at a company? Why?

You can be sued for making defamatory statements against your prior employer, so you better make sure you can handle the court costs if it comes to that.

It's not just the court costs. They will also try to paint you as less than competent and trying to play the gender card. To try to salvage their own reputation, they'll publicly trash yours. Make sure it's worth it to you before you go down this road.

Note well: I am not justifying what such a company will do. I am merely saying that they almost certainly will do this.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#126

Post by AnimalMuppet »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #14

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers” Seriously, what kind of a dick says that to anybody - even if it was nothing to do with gender, it's an egregious offence.

My guess? An insecure one, who therefore is trying to build up his own self-esteem by tearing other people down.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#127

Post by afarrell »

thumbtackthief wrote: post #123
dominotw wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Indian who has had (multiple) people say ( a version of) "Go back to answering phones" There will always be bigots and douchebags everywhere. People who say this stuff don't matter to me and people who matter do say shit like that.

It's good that you're strong enough, mature enough, wise enough to ignore that kind of idiocy. The problem is for the weaker, younger, more naive person that hears it and takes it seriously.

And then doesn't grow into the stronger more mature developer that we'd get to work with.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#128

Post by DaleHarries1982 »

kordless wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #19

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers”. I really don't understand guys who say (or think) shit like this. Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid . I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years, and I've never seen any reason…

Reading about history is usually a good way to educate. ENIAC, the world's first and fastest (at that time) electronic computer, had a full time devops staff of six. ENIAC was a beast of a machine, using a whopping 150kW of power, and broke on a daily basis. ENIAC's devops team was comprised of Kay McNulty, Betty Jennings, Betty Snyder, Marlyn Wescoff, Fran Bilas and Ruth Lichterman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIA…

Don't forget the Bletchley Park women too :)

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#129

Post by bronson »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #111
bronson wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If yes then you'd better really try to understand this cartoon: http://xkcd.com/1138/

To be clear. You're saying apparent skew by sex of characteristics is simply down to inequitable consideration of the populations? So, for example, men aren't in any way - as a population - stronger, say, and so more capable as bricklayers [in general] it's just that we're not analysing the populations properly? So, you'd warrant that arm strength, which follows a close correlation with sex (ie if your arms are able…

That's not what you asked. What you first asked was simple, with a simple answer: if all else is considered equal, the best practitioners are statistically most likely to come from the largest population.

What you're asking now sounds just as uninteresting. "The population higher in testosterone makes better bricklayers? Call the Nobel committee!"

It's true, you can set up giant psych experiments to demonstrate pretty much any bias you want. Have fun, but don't expect the bodybuilders and math students to care about your results. And try not to wander too close to eugenics.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#130

Post by waterlesscloud »

tptacek wrote: post #79
protonfish wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are being distracted by the content of the comment. This kind of nonsense has nothing to do with sexism. (Or if it were racist it has nothing to do with racism, or any other types of 'isms.) Some people are simply cruel, angry, sadistic bullies and the internet gives them the anonymity to get away with it. The reason for the comment was only to hurt.

What purpose is served by trying to argue that an overtly sexist comment ("you're a woman, leave development to the men") has nothing to do with sexism? This is another instance of the "to a certain kind of nerd, every problem can be unproductively reduced to a spreadsheet" fallacy that Joel Spolsky talked about on his blog. Follow the logic to its conclusion and what you're ending up with is "there's no such thing a…

You're having a different conversation from Mindcrime and Protonfish.

Mindcrime expressed confusion that anyone could actually believe such a thing. Protonfish expressed his belief that such comments are primarily intended to hurt, by which he's implicitly agreeing with Mindcrime. He doesn't think the attackers actually believe such a thing.

He's not trying to minimize the attack. He's just attempting to help Mindcrime understand how someone would say something that they both believe to not be true.

What he's not doing is addressing the origin of the desire to hurt, which likely is based (at least so I believe) in misogyny.

No one has at any point said there is no such thing as sexism or misogyny.

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