Live data from Hacker News

How Apple Cheats

marksands.github.io

231–235 of 235 posts

Re: How Apple Cheats

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're failing to understand is that there is more than one market in question. Nobody is saying that Apple has a monopoly on smartphones. The issue is that Apple has a monopoly on iOS app distribution . It's a completely different market, and there is no substitute product in that market. You can't get iPhone apps from Google Play and you can't run Android apps on your iPhone.

No, the market is "consumers of mobile devices, upon which apps can be distributed or installed." What you're identifying as it's own market is actually a brand; a segment of a larger market. A market in which there is plenty of competition, I'd add. What you're proposing could easily be said about any supply of any good or service owned by anybody or any company. If each company's product distribution constitutes a…

> No, the market is "consumers of mobile devices, upon which apps can be distributed or installed."

Let me see if I can explain why that's wrong.

> What you're proposing could easily be said about any supply of any good or service owned by anybody or any company. If each company's product distribution constitutes a monopoly of "Product X Market", then "monopoly" has been redefined.

Technically a trademark is a monopoly, albeit a legally granted one. But that's not what I'm talking about.

For example, Exxon 87 unleaded gasoline is completely fungible with BP 87 unleaded gasoline. They're for all practical purposes the same product, so they're in the same market even though they're different brands. An iPhone is less fungible with, say, a Samsung phone. They're still close enough substitutes to be plausibly considered the same market (although, for example, in the Microsoft case Windows and MacOS were found not to be in the same market). But that's still not the market I'm talking about. I'm talking about distribution of apps for these devices.

Let's start with a preliminary issue. Are iPhone apps in the same market as Android apps? Can they be used as substitutes for one another? The answer is clearly no. You can't run an Android app on an iPhone. This is substantially why Windows and MacOS were found not to be in the same market, but again that's not the market I'm interested in here. The point is that iOS apps and Android apps are not substitutes. And that doesn't even necessarily separate the markets for the devices -- because even though Angry Birds for iOS is a different product sold to different customers than Angry Birds for Android, the fact that the quantity and quality of apps available for each platform is comparable means that the platforms themselves are still reasonable substitutes for one another. But you can imagine how that could change if app developers stopped developing for one platform or the other, which reinforces the point.

So back to the apps. Is there competition for the production of iOS apps? Of course there is. There are thousands of developers; that's not at issue. But distribution is different than production. General Electric is not Walmart. Is there competition for distribution? No. No one is allowed to distribute iOS apps but Apple. There are no substitutes, Apple has a distribution monopoly in that market.

That is not how most "brands" work. You don't have to buy cars through Exxon. You don't have to buy gasoline through Ford. You don't even have to buy Android apps through Google Play. Apple is doing something unusual which results in the monopoly.

Re: How Apple Cheats

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the comment was also not an argument, it was just a restatement of the statement you were denying. Are you claiming that there is no circumstance in which Sun exercising control over what software could be run on the hardware of its customers could lead to an antitrust violation? That seems implausible. Once you're exercising gatekeeper control in that way, you would among other things for example have co…

> Are you claiming that there is no circumstance in which Sun exercising control over what software could be run on the hardware of its customers could lead to an antitrust violation? No, I'm claiming that under the circustances that you (or the OP) described in the previous comment it wouldn't lead to an antitrust violation. I can't talk for "under ANY circustances". > That seems implausible Well, the low allows it…

> No, I'm claiming that under the circustances that you (or the OP) described in the previous comment it wouldn't lead to an antitrust violation.

The OP was claiming that the reason Sun was not prosecuted for an antitrust violation despite the lack of OS competition for SPARC hardware was that other hardware existed in competition with SPARC. But the reason there was no competing OS to run on SPARC is not the same reason that there is no competing OS to run on iPhone. In the case of SPARC the lack of OS competition was not a result of any interference on the part of Sun. When Linux was subsequently ported to SPARC they made no effort to prevent it, I imagine they probably did most of the work. In the case of iPhone the lack of OS and app store competition is directly a result of Apple thwarting it. It is extremely likely that at least one of Android/Ubuntu/FirefoxOS/etc. would be ported to iPhone hardware in the alternative, and that Amazon or others would be operating competing app stores. So the existence of hardware competition was not the only thing saving Sun from an antitrust violation -- even if they had a strong hardware monopoly their behavior wouldn't have been an abuse of it. Apple is behaving differently. Its behavior is distinguishable from that of Sun in a way that makes an antitrust violation significantly more plausible. There is a much stronger argument that Apple exerts monopoly power over the market for iOS applications than Sun ever did over the market for Solaris applications. Which part of this do you deny?

> Well, the low allows it and companies have been doing it for ages, e.g with game consoles.

I'm not sure how clear that is. Was there an antitrust case against a game console maker in which they were vindicated? Just because the government has never prosecuted anyone doesn't mean it isn't a violation. Antitrust law is about as clear as mud and they rarely prosecute anybody even in cases of much less nuanced violations.

Re: How Apple Cheats

#233
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the conditions of the apple app store, the single entry to any customer's smartphone, is that you don't directly compete with any apple app. What more do you really need to know ? If this isn't abuse of monopoly power, then what is ?

Have you not seen google maps, amazon's kindle app, the many weather and stock apps, Instagram for taking and sharing photos? I can't think of a native app that doesn't have competition.

e.g. https://angelo.dinardi.name/2008/09/20/mailwrangler-and-the-...

Re: How Apple Cheats

#234

This reminds me of how Microsoft added specific code to Windows 95 to ensure SimCity would run. This is from Joel Spolsky's Strategy Letter II: Chicken and Egg Problems http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html So Windows 3.x on Intel 80386s was the first version that could run multiple DOS programs respectably. (Technically, Windows 386 could too, but 80386s were rare and expensive until about the ti…

My understanding is that Raymond Chen ( http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/ ) was a huge part of ensuring that everything was backwards compatible. If you like that kind of thing, he's got a book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Old-New-Thing-Development/dp/03214...

Amazing. Thanks, I didn't know of him specifically but I do remember seeing his book somewhere.

Re: How Apple Cheats

#235
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is a stone in every the car but Apple hides it and you can't unhide it.

Well, I have lost 7 karma points because I agree with an article.

I know how you feel. It just goes to show you that the masses think a like. :). Here is a +1 for you buddy, for what its worth, I thought the link was good.
Post reply on HN