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What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

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Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#11
> In “Dante’s Hell and Its Afterlife,” an undergraduate course I teach at my university, students have to work hard to achieve good results (not to mention an A-level grade) on a research essay. The “excellent” paper will contain a substantive thesis that is appropriately focused, coherent, and interpretive, not merely descriptive; a detailed analysis of well-chosen examples to support the argument; a logical ordering of parts, each contributing to the whole, with transitions and topic sentences that advance and crystallize the main points; an effective use of information from credible sources, correctly cited and documented; and all expressed in clear, concise, grammatically correct prose.

So true. Writing is highly technical and very difficult. Just before I started at my state university, it added a writing test that all students had to pass before receiving a degree because employers complained about the lack of writing skills. Several years in, most people were still failing on their first try.

Unfortunately, writing doesn't have debugging tools, tests and output for feedback to let you know if what you put together works. Rather, you need someone who is a good writer to provide honest feedback.

Also difficult is that developing good writing skills requires good instructors / mentors. I have had too many writing classes with instructors who would give praise for just about anything. All of my instructors in my first year of taking writing classes told me how great I was. It wasn't until I took a technical writing class in which my first paper came back a mess of red ink that I finally felt like I was learning something. That class was one of the most valuable I have ever taken. She told us at the beginning of the class that few people can write well, we probably won't ever be able to write well either (true for me,) but she would help us become passable enough to get through the writing test.

Granted, most writing classes don't focus on the same items as technical writing. But with as much effort as this instructor put into every one of my papers, this can't be something many instructors are willing to do.

How do you become a good writer and get good feedback? I don't know.

Compare this to many other classes in which the instructor is largely a guide and you do most or all of your learning on your own.

ETA: I think the instructor and the quality of the course is extremely important. Many subjects in college can be setup to be easy to coast through or rigorous. The name on the course isn't as important as the contents.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#12

"Guess the teacher's password" is a strategy that works for many English majors and few Computer Science majors. You can succeed at rhetoric by either learning how to make good rhetoric, or by learning how to tell people what they want to hear. It's significantly more difficult to write good programs by learning how to tell people what they want to hear.

There are English professors who are legitimately hard to game, people who are smarter than most or all of us but have chosen to focus on something different. Yes, there's more noise in the system in the humanities, but don't underestimate them just because they have a different skill set. However, the game-the-system students generally avoid those professors, who get a reputation for being difficult graders. So your…

Yeah but in CS, the program works or it doesn't. So there's none of that wiggle room. CS degree definitely signals something - a minimum competency that is uncertain in a humanities student.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#13
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

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Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#14

@joelgrus really nailed it. When someone at Google uses the verb "signals," you need to pay attention. Nothing is black and white in search. It's entirely about pulling together multiple sources of information, and deciding which ones signal the strongest and correlate with the results you're looking for. Guy Raffa is welcome to make his own search engine company staffed entirely with English majors to prove his poin…

Disagreeable or not, I find it amusing that he opens his piece with a rubric regarding what constitutes an "excellent" paper in his course, and your last sentence contains such a glaring fallacy that it seems entirely likely he'd dock you heavily for it (and rightly so). It's also incredibly ironic considering the context of the argument at hand.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#15
It's google's loss. And believe me it will be. A CS degree may be the best signal of a worker who will program all day, but it's not a good signal for the wide variety of other skills that are required to make a popular, well rounded and valuable product.

For example, making a workflow that is general understandable for the average user requires a strong set of less defined soft skills, like empathy, clarity of thesis, interviewing skills and a translation of discrete systems into metaphors non CS majors can work with.

And to be fair, google already seems to know this as they are trying to minimize the power of engineers in consumer facing product groups.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#16
post #3

It's not that you can't learn rigor and critical thinking skills as an English major, it's that it's not all that hard to complete an English degree without learning those things. Hence the word "signals".

As former English literature and philosophy student (I am studying computer science while working for a startup now) I can tell you at that at my university you would not get an A if your reasoning and critical analysis were poor. When I was studying it was not uncommon for STEM students to get 100% for tests and exams but such a thing was unheard of in the humanities faculty. If an undergraduate got 100% for an English essay that essay would be worthy of publication in a literary journal which only happened once while I was there.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#17
post #13
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

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Yours is "oh noetry".

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#18
So one of the very few English professors in the country with a computer science degree is offended by Google's hiring practices.

The fact is most English majors don't enjoy heavy duty math or science as much and it's not that weird to expect a computer science major to depend more on logic and rigor when approaching a problem than it is for someone whose thesis was devoted to a literary analysis of the symbolism behind the pickle dish in Ethan Frome.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#19
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

I sort of agree with your overall sentiment, but the reason you found the average student from humanities inept is because the good students generally opt for STEM courses - presumably because these courses allow you to make much more money after you pass out. I also happen to believe that the world would be a much better place if a larger number of bright students study humanities subjects - especially history and literature.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#20
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

I'm not sure about typical English majors vs. CS majors, but in a cognitive sense there is quite a bit of overlap in certain areas. Writing and high-comprehension reading involves the deep understanding and manipulation of language. So does programming.
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