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Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

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Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#241

Post by dragonwriter »

Touche wrote: post #236
e98cuenc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. In Europe cities were obviously not build with cars in mind, and as a result I enjoy here a much higher density of amenities (and suffer much worse driving conditions / parking t…

> It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. Huh, why would you think that? I'm not sure there's a major city in the U.S. that wasn't already a major city pre-car. And cities weren't redesigned post-car, that's why a lot…

> I'm not sure there's a major city in the U.S. that wasn't already a major city pre-car.

Los Angeles. Possibly more.

> And cities weren't redesigned post-car, that's why a lot of them have road problems.

Sure they were. Not from scratch, but incrementally. Its true that because it was incremental and not ground-up, and mostly affected new development and re-development, that cities that were major cities pre-car (like NYC) look very different than newer cities (Los Angeles).

> U.S. cities are spread out because of suburbanization.

"Suburbanization" is an effect, not a cause. Designing for cars is a (but not the only) cause.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#242

Post by danielweber »

lars512 wrote: post #229
User9812 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see that working. You'll require a ton of cars taking individuals or small groups to and from work in a big city. That's not very efficient, and the reason we have a metro system in the first place. 1. That's a lot of pollution. 2. You have twice as much traffic, since these cars need to come to your house every morning, and drive back to their charging station in the evening. They can take those trips off-pe…

You're right, public transport isn't going anywhere and still has huge efficiency benefits. But these cars can make it better, by solving the first/last mile problem. I imagine them ferrying people frantically to and from mass transit hubs, especially between low-density suburban housing and trains.

You are going to have to, first, make the mass transit so awesome that people voluntarily leave their cars behind to get on the train.

As you get more cars off the road, other people will use the open roads to travel into the city.

Note that "you have to make mass transit awesome enough that people use it" is not "make driving suck." You will never make any headway in a democracy by telling the majority of the people they should re-arrange their lives to follow your utopian model.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#243

Post by lmm »

bitL wrote: post #216

One of the few pleasures of modern world is now slowly being removed! :-D I guess I will treasure my memories of driving Lamborghini Murcielago over 200mph forever and will tell my grandchildren there was a time when you actually could drive a car yourself! And to those that argue young people don't want to own the car - it's mostly about not wanting to spend your life commuting, hunting parking spots or in traffic j…

> One of the few pleasures of modern world is now slowly being removed! :-D

For most people the driving commute is the most unpleasant part of their life.

> I guess I will treasure my memories of driving Lamborghini Murcielago over 200mph forever and will tell my grandchildren there was a time when you actually could drive a car yourself!

Driving over 200mph has never been safe (and rarely been legal) on the public roads; if that's where you did it you were recklessly endangering the lives of others (I'm sure you thought you were perfectly safe; everyone does right up until the point they crash). If you did it on a track or other controlled environment, guess what: those places will still exist. Just as people still ride horses for pleasure, people will still drive cars. But those of us who just want to get to work in one piece will be able to.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#244

Post by apendleton »

Touche wrote: post #236
e98cuenc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. In Europe cities were obviously not build with cars in mind, and as a result I enjoy here a much higher density of amenities (and suffer much worse driving conditions / parking t…

> It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. Huh, why would you think that? I'm not sure there's a major city in the U.S. that wasn't already a major city pre-car. And cities weren't redesigned post-car, that's why a lot…

New York City is the most obvious example, but most large east-coast cities were large pre-car. And many cities made major infrastructural changes in light of the car, mostly in the form of the addition of elevated highways, some of which are now being torn out again because of their negative effects on neighborhood continuity, urban fabric, etc. Examples of the former would include the I-395 underpass/mixing bowl into DC and chunk of I-5 that separates downtown Seattle from Capitol Hill, and examples of the latter include the ripping out of the Embarcadero freeway in San Francisco and (likely) the Alaska Way viaduct, also in Seattle.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#245

Post by apendleton »

pc86 wrote: post #203
revelation wrote: post #192

The comments here are rather disappointing. It doesn't have manual controls? Well thats the point! I want to leave my crap in it and paint it some ugly color? Get with the times, young people already opt to not own cars. I can't double park in the city? Why are you imposing your steel box on people living in cities, many of which do not own cars and want walkable streets? I mean, this is the news website for a startu…

Is a car parked on a street really an imposition on you?

Assuming this is an actual rather than rhetorical question, I'd recommend Donald Shoup's The High Cost of Free Parking: http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/1...

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#246

Post by ijk »

Touche wrote: post #236
e98cuenc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. In Europe cities were obviously not build with cars in mind, and as a result I enjoy here a much higher density of amenities (and suffer much worse driving conditions / parking t…

> It is (indirectly) to me. I often visit the US, and I'm always amazed that I can't seem to go anywhere walking. The distances to go anywhere are huge. It seems to be that way because cities in the US where designed / build with cars in mind. Huh, why would you think that? I'm not sure there's a major city in the U.S. that wasn't already a major city pre-car. And cities weren't redesigned post-car, that's why a lot…

Note, however, that suburbanization is a post-car phenomenon.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#247

Post by gambiting »

revelation wrote: post #192

The comments here are rather disappointing. It doesn't have manual controls? Well thats the point! I want to leave my crap in it and paint it some ugly color? Get with the times, young people already opt to not own cars. I can't double park in the city? Why are you imposing your steel box on people living in cities, many of which do not own cars and want walkable streets? I mean, this is the news website for a startu…

Are you saying that if my opinions are unlike yours, then I should not be visiting HN, or even voice my opinions?

Not everyone on HN is from the US - US has a massive car problem, because Americans had a very strong car culture for 7 decades now - so for them, not having a car is "new".

I come from a country where 25 years ago pretty much no one had a car, because you had to have a permission from the government to own one, and even if you did, there was a 5 year wait to be allowed to purchase it. For us, having a car and embracing the car culture is "new". Not having cars is a sign of the older, poorer country, which we want to have little to do with now.

For me personally, driving is like the second favourite activity I do during the day, even if it's just going to work. I dread the day when self-driving cars become mandatory - I will be incredibly unhappy and I do not want that to happen anytime soon.

Is it ok to voice my opinion here? Or will you tell me that I should go away from the "startup accelerator; new way of doing things" website that I have grown to love? Can you not like both startups AND cars? Is that too complicated?

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#248

Post by danielweber »

m0nty wrote: post #205
revelation wrote: post #192

The comments here are rather disappointing. It doesn't have manual controls? Well thats the point! I want to leave my crap in it and paint it some ugly color? Get with the times, young people already opt to not own cars. I can't double park in the city? Why are you imposing your steel box on people living in cities, many of which do not own cars and want walkable streets? I mean, this is the news website for a startu…

> The comments here are rather disappointing. Most of them remind me of Clifford Stoll's famous rant: http://www.newsweek.com/clifford-stoll-why-web-wont-be-nirva... "This new thing isn't like the old thing, so it could never work."

Stoll was one of the first to hop on the Internet bandwagon, and he thought he could get lucky twice by hopping off the fad before it became passe.

As for the crazy from the other side, read anything by Nicholas Negroponte at the same time.

A lot of young people, especially young hackers, think like authors of science fiction novels, where there is some grand society that they have designed, and how everything is happy. Why don't people get on board?

First, they don't trust you to be right about all the trade-offs. This mistrust only increases when you tell them to get with the times; it's clear distaste for their preferences, so it only signals that you don't value their input.

Second, even if your new society model is better, you have to get people to use it. And if the way you transition is "everyone give up your old thing, then we will all move to the new thing, trust me," they will do the opposite of trust you.

Self-driving cars are a very nice transition, because no one is forcing them into use. You can have one if you want. You can hear your friend talking about how useful they are. You can try it out, and if you don't like it you don't have to use it.

"No one owns a car" is not a nice transition, no matter how awesome you think it is in the latest novel you read about able-bodied and pretty 20-somethings. Public transportation really sucks in a lot of places precisely because making public transportation awesome gets less priority than a bunch of other things, like demanding that people get to bring their pets or bikes on board, or the homeless people using it as a place to sleep.

You can make a very good case that social justice requires letting the homeless sleep on the buses. That's fine. It may even be the right call. But it means that no one else will want to use the buses. (NYC has cops every block to keep the homeless moving along, and their public transport is pretty nice.)

Buses could be awesome, if they were managed like Google buses. I would love to take one of those to work. But look at all the grief they get from the left. Grand ideas for re-imagining society will face opposition from places you would never have imagined.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#249

Post by josephlord »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #200
josephlord wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a limited time after you post in which you can edit (2 hours I think). I've upvoted your comment as you are right it wasn't downvote worthy. I may have downvoted your complaint about the voting but the side note is a real question).

Thanks. Is this a recent change? It's only a problem I've noticed myself having in the last few weeks.

No not recent; although it is possible the window has shortened.

Re: Just press go: designing a self-driving vehicle

#250

Post by elicash »

usaphp wrote: post #207
revelation wrote: post #192

The comments here are rather disappointing. It doesn't have manual controls? Well thats the point! I want to leave my crap in it and paint it some ugly color? Get with the times, young people already opt to not own cars. I can't double park in the city? Why are you imposing your steel box on people living in cities, many of which do not own cars and want walkable streets? I mean, this is the news website for a startu…

> young people already opt to not own cars. Really? Any study on this matter?

When I googled, this PDF was the first result: http://www.uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/reports/Transportatio...
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