Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which also means no GUI to get in the way. I'm not saying there isn't a time and a place for that, but after your 2nd or 3rd decade of using a tool, sometimes you just want to see the text you're working on.
You may have hit on my fundamental frustration with Unix command line. Every tool is designed around the basic assumption that the user has a couple of decades of experience and wants the tool to get out out of the way and let them work. That's great for veterans, but actively hostile to newbies. You'd think there could be some sort of middle ground.
Can someone :help me?
21–30 of 53 posts
Re: Can someone :help me?
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which also means no GUI to get in the way. I'm not saying there isn't a time and a place for that, but after your 2nd or 3rd decade of using a tool, sometimes you just want to see the text you're working on.
You may have hit on my fundamental frustration with Unix command line. Every tool is designed around the basic assumption that the user has a couple of decades of experience and wants the tool to get out out of the way and let them work. That's great for veterans, but actively hostile to newbies. You'd think there could be some sort of middle ground.
I would have to respectfully disagree. With the copious amounts of man-pages, the availability of vim-tutor (for this particular case), and all other avenues of help available within most Unix tools, I cannot agree with the notion that software (vim, in particular) is actively hostile. Compared to the copious amounts of software that is far less documented, and far less robust than the standard Unix set of tools, I think calling the command line hostile is at best downright laziness.
Please don't call something hostile if you've barely given it a chance. Not every tool needs to be wrapped in a fully animated tutorial with buttons everywhere. In fact, the more elegant tools often don't have these things and do their best to stay out of your way. Which leads to the next part of your comment:
> You'd think there could be some sort of middle ground.
Why would there be? Any middle ground would risk upsetting two groups: the power users that want the tool to stay out of the way and do what it's meant to do, and the group of newbies (or regular users) that can't figure out what the tool was designed for or the best way to use it. The regular users wouldn't be satisfied with the help available for any middle-ground tool, and power users would just find that the half-baked tutorials, help system, or user support just got in the way. This would cause a rift in the community, which would force some users to search for a replacement that gives better help, while the power users would drift to a similar tool with the cruft and bell and whistles removed.
If you're just a regular user, and you end up using a tool like Notepad++ or Nano or some other editor instead of Vim or Emacs, and you can't for the life of you figure out vim or emacs, that is completely fine. Continue using the tool you are capable of wielding. However, that's not to say that vim or emacs don't have their own documentation and help systems, it's just that they're not served to the user in the same way. It may not be directly obvious when switching between systems (example: standard help documentation in Windows is nothing like using man or info pages), but I would reckon that it is only immediately non-obvious because you're already used to another way of searching for help.
So please stop calling software hostile, and give it a chance. Truly hostile software exists, but I can guarantee you that basic command line utilities are not it.
Re: Can someone :help me?
#23Does no one check their page layout on anything but 4k resolution any more? Here's what the page looks like on one of my 1280x1024 screens: http://i.imgur.com/w6WXYF6.png Since the screen is physically on my left, it's very annoying to try to read the text.
Hmm, thanks for that, I'll see what I can do. I don't have a 4k monitor but I do have a retina MBP. I tested it on mobile and the retina MBP but I don't have access to a lower resolution computer (hehe).
Re: Can someone :help me?
#24The documentation is so good, you need a beautifully crafted website with english sentences, standard typography / web styles, and acommpanying visual diagrams...simply to learn how to use the "help" feature.
I've also noticed some people will manually go search a plugin on Github just to read the plugin's doc folder, when the same help doc is available right inside vim!
So I thought I would help explain why Vim's help is so awesome that people should use it more and using it more means that you learn more things about vim.
But I appreciate that you like my website, thanks! :)
Re: Can someone :help me?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Better still, if you want to execute a command and if you approximately know what it could be called as, you get list of potential commands in an alternative buffer, by Alt-x, and then start typing part of the command. This I feel is great to explore commands as you need them, before binding new keys to those commands. Without getting into emacs vs vim war, the author would be impressed in a bigger way once the emacs…
I'm sure I would be. I actually like emacs very much, and used to use it in my uni days. These days though, I like the modal way of editing more. I think emacs' documentation does come close but I still think Vim's help is much more easy to use and to search for. For example, a new user coming to emacs can't search for help on C-x C-f by invoking C-h C-x C-f
Re: Can someone :help me?
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hmm, thanks for that, I'll see what I can do. I don't have a 4k monitor but I do have a retina MBP. I tested it on mobile and the retina MBP but I don't have access to a lower resolution computer (hehe).
Just change the size of your window.
Re: Can someone :help me?
#27If you're curious, Emacs does all this—and more—with various C-h commands. If you want to see a full list of these, start with C-h ? Here are my favorites: If you want to see a specific keybinding, like checking what C-w is bound to: C-h k C-w If you want to see the documentation for a function: C-h f function-name If you want to see details about your current mode: C-h m This is incredibly useful because it lists al…
And you really should want seeing your info manuals - they are incredibly high quality resources for the most part. Emacs, Emacs Lisp, Org Mode, Magit infos, for example, are all full fledged books, properly split into chapters, filled with all the details you'd ever need. They are indexed and searchable and they are easy to navigate.
Just install info+ and some related scripts before starting with infos - this will give you syntax highlighting and colors in the info viewer. I don't remember if bookmarks are part of the vanilla Emacs, but if not you probably would want to install some bookmarking plugin too. After that is done it becomes the most pleasant technical reading experience ever.
Re: Can someone :help me?
#28The documentation is so good, you need a beautifully crafted website with english sentences, standard typography / web styles, and acommpanying visual diagrams...simply to learn how to use the "help" feature.
Last time I had to debug a bash script so I found bashdb "from apt-cache search debug bash" and just ran it. I had no problem using the internal help.
Most of the time you don't have to look up things on the Internet and just RTFM.
Re: Can someone :help me?
#29For example, 'ctrl-r' in normal mode means redo, in insert mode means paste from register. However ':h ctrl-r' only shows the help for normal mode.
Re: Can someone :help me?
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which also means no GUI to get in the way. I'm not saying there isn't a time and a place for that, but after your 2nd or 3rd decade of using a tool, sometimes you just want to see the text you're working on.
You may have hit on my fundamental frustration with Unix command line. Every tool is designed around the basic assumption that the user has a couple of decades of experience and wants the tool to get out out of the way and let them work. That's great for veterans, but actively hostile to newbies. You'd think there could be some sort of middle ground.
There's probably a few factors that confound this. First, a GUI for something as abstract and powerful as VI is difficult to create, and still keep usable. The only way I can really imagine it is a kind of tutorial overlay which presents common options on the screen. Similar problem for the shell, I guess, there are just too many things you can / want to do in there to distill into a GUI.
Second, I suspect that these tools come from an age where people had different expectations, and with those, different ways of looking for help. I guess most *nix people are aware of man-pages, and are pretty efficient at reading it's syntax. Despite it's lack of GUI, VIM tries pretty hard to point you to the help (e.g. on my installation, the help commands are always shown when you start it - I guess this is by default).