The ironic thing about this is that the nature of Bitcoin (specifically, the fact that all transactions are recorded in the blockchain) means that auditing a Bitcoin exchange is an eminently solvable problem. To my mind, given the ease with which Bitcoin wallets can be created, any exchange that commingles its clients' Bitcoins should be viewed with suspicion. Yes, it's easier to dump everything into a few wallets, i…
Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
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Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#62The reason I'm inclined to believe this report's implications about Karpeles is because I spent a long time in Mt. Gox's IRC support channel talking with support reps, and they were paid to lie. They didn't know they were being paid to lie, but they were instructed by management to say "don't worry, all user coins are safe" right up until the day the Mt. Gox crisis report was leaked. They could have said "we are inve…
> Karpeles seems to have a history of lying. He was caught in a lie by his employer in 2004
Everybody "has a history of lying", because everybody lies. One incident of lying to an employer about IM'ing (or using Facebook or HN while at work, which almost every HN user has likely done) does not a future fraud make.
Lying is universal - we all do it. Therefore, the wise thing is for us diligently to train ourselves to lie thoughtfully, judiciously; to lie with a good object, and not an evil one; to lie for others' advantage, and not our own; to lie healingly, charitably, humanely, not cruelly, hurtfully, maliciously; to lie gracefully and graciously, not awkwardly and clumsily; to lie firmly, frankly, squarely, with head erect, not haltingly, tortuously, with pusillanimous mien, as being ashamed of our high calling. - Mark Twain
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#63Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#64The reason I'm inclined to believe this report's implications about Karpeles is because I spent a long time in Mt. Gox's IRC support channel talking with support reps, and they were paid to lie. They didn't know they were being paid to lie, but they were instructed by management to say "don't worry, all user coins are safe" right up until the day the Mt. Gox crisis report was leaked. They could have said "we are inve…
I agree with pretty much everything you said but is it true that regulations would have prevented someone like Karpeles from doing the same with say, gold? What regulations prevent this? I'm asking genuinely because I have no idea what regulations exist in that world and I keep hearing that argument from smart people so I guess it's probably true.
For instance, if the exchange had been regulated as a Designated Contract Maker (DCM) by the US CFTC [1] (which by the way will most likely never happen), it would had been subject to very specific and strict disclosure/auditing, price discovery, capital, risk and monitoring requirements --including for instance strict limits on account aggregation, hard position limits for very large accounts, 'surprise' audits and automated 'alerts' to regulators [2].
Furthermore, if people's complaints or whistleblowers were to persuade CFTC they had a case, they would had had the authority to investigate them, prosecute them, pre-emptively close them down and freeze their assets, and even piercing the corporate veil (eg target Karpeles' individual assets, or even criminal liability) under their broad anti-market manipulation authority [3,4]. At the very least the prospect of harsh prosecution --as opposed to simply wash your hands by declaring bankruptcy and moving on-- should have affected his cost-benefit calculus.
Again this is not to say of course the regulations would have precluded any form of massive fraud or market manipulation (which happens all the time regardless; cf the recent Libor scandal), but definitely it would have made this particular scheme essentially unfeasible.
[1] http://www.cftc.gov/IndustryOversight/TradingOrganizations/D...
[2] http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7ccb37730775...
[3] http://www.cftc.gov/LawRegulation/DoddFrankAct/Rulemakings/D...
[4] http://www.cftc.gov/ucm/groups/public/@newsroom/documents/fi...
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#65Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#66The reason I'm inclined to believe this report's implications about Karpeles is because I spent a long time in Mt. Gox's IRC support channel talking with support reps, and they were paid to lie. They didn't know they were being paid to lie, but they were instructed by management to say "don't worry, all user coins are safe" right up until the day the Mt. Gox crisis report was leaked. They could have said "we are inve…
More than lying, he has a history of computer fraud: http://newslines.org/mt-gox/convicted-of-computer-fraud/
- Mark Karpelesberg
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
It pains me to say this, but "dumb and evil" have been par for bitcoin thus far. The question is, will the situation change? It might. Many modern reliable systems grew out of shaky or illicit foundations. But that's little solace in the meantime.
> Many modern reliable systems grew out of shaky or illicit foundations. Arguably, those systems became reliable because of the adoption of standards of practice, insurance and regulation. Even the mafia has rules (and a means of enforcing them.)
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#68The reason I'm inclined to believe this report's implications about Karpeles is because I spent a long time in Mt. Gox's IRC support channel talking with support reps, and they were paid to lie. They didn't know they were being paid to lie, but they were instructed by management to say "don't worry, all user coins are safe" right up until the day the Mt. Gox crisis report was leaked. They could have said "we are inve…
I agree with pretty much everything you said but is it true that regulations would have prevented someone like Karpeles from doing the same with say, gold? What regulations prevent this? I'm asking genuinely because I have no idea what regulations exist in that world and I keep hearing that argument from smart people so I guess it's probably true.
A number of new regulations have come into place in the past few years to help prevent recurrences of recent financial scandals and meltdowns, and to ultimately bring stability to the markets, e.g. the Dodd-Frank Act (DFA) for US parties and MiFID/EMIR (and in the future MiFIR) for EU parties.
These regulations provide for e.g. daily and in some cases semi-realtime (30min) reporting of trading activities. Reports can also go to the counterparties who can dispute or verify trading activities.
Other countries, e.g. Russia, Singapore, Hong Kong, even South Africa are enacting similar pieces of legislation.
In some cases, the trade repositories (companies who accept trade reports) satisfy multiple supervisory bodies e.g. the DTCC will accept reporting under DFA, EMIR, MAS (Singapore), HKMA (Hong Kong) legislation.
Here is the speculative part: You can imagine this gives authorities a pretty good idea of who is trading what, what their exposure is and to who, etc. Because all parties are required to be registered with the appropriate regulatory bodies, I would think the alleged fraud at MtGox would have at least two obvious problems if they were subject to similar regulatory oversight:
(1) MtGox would be registered as brokers and wouldn't be trading parties, so at minimum it'd be very suspicious (and more likely illegal) to see them taking the other side of a trade (they couldn't report using a non-existent party for their side of the trade like they do here as that submission would be rejected since the party would be invalid, and they can't just not report because the counterparty buying the BTC will identify MtGox as the seller in its submissions; they also can't use a random real counterparty because that real party will dispute the trade took place)
(2) even if they legitimately took the other side of the trade (e.g. Mark registers as a trader) while cooking the books, I'd imagine they'd have to reconcile their audited books/bank accounts with their reported trading history, which would reveal fraud (by controlling the trading history they can claim anything; with a regulator, they can't control the trading history).
In effect, regulation of this sort would force all trading claims to balance out across all parties - where they don't, there would be an investigation.
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#69The ironic thing about this is that the nature of Bitcoin (specifically, the fact that all transactions are recorded in the blockchain) means that auditing a Bitcoin exchange is an eminently solvable problem. To my mind, given the ease with which Bitcoin wallets can be created, any exchange that commingles its clients' Bitcoins should be viewed with suspicion. Yes, it's easier to dump everything into a few wallets, i…
Segregated wallets doesn't work, that would mean every single trade would be a transaction on the block chain. It would absolutely flood the network and result in massive fees. It literally can't be done that way.
Re: Fraudulent trading activity at Mt. Gox
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
A shockingly one-sided article. Probably colored by their aversion to Libertarianism.
Which sentences from the article do you disagree with?
Bitcoin is a scam
Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme
There is zero chance that bitcoin will ever be mainstream
Bitcoin does not have a single advantage over fiat currency
Bitcoin will never be useful for online shopping
None of the problems with bitcoin can be fixed
All bitcoin users and developers are incompetent, does not know anything about economics, does not understand people at all and has no understanding on how to build reliable financial computing infrastructure
Looks pretty one-sided to me.