Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#1

Post by miguelrochefort » Sat, May 24, 2014, 6:13 PM UTC

Privacy is one of the hottest topic right now on HN.

People rarely (if ever) ask whether privacy is a good thing or a bad thing. Most simply assume that it's inherently good, and many go as far as claiming that it's a right. There's no discussion about the validity of privacy as something to aim for.

Most posts about privacy either describe some event in which privacy was infringed, or provide technical solutions to this so-called problem. The perfect mix of inflated drama and unfounded paranoïa.

I'm personally not convinced that privacy should be more than a temporary means to an end. If anything, privacy is the bottleneck of social progress. I can't imagine a future in which privacy is encouraged or well-accepted.

Is there something I'm missing? Am I misunderstanding how people feel about privacy? Is there any inherent value in privacy? Could privacy be a necessity?

I'm eager to hear your thougths on the matter.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#2

Post by tambourmajor » Sat, May 24, 2014, 8:07 PM UTC

I think that can be answered quite briefly: Malicious people exist and they can use things we consider private against you. We are inherently imperfect and thus we define a protected space in which we can can happily be imperfect without spending energy on worrying about it.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#3

Post by rohamg » Sat, May 24, 2014, 8:50 PM UTC

One very important benefit of privacy is it allows experimentation without commitment: because we live in a society that often rushes to label, pigeon-hole, and categorize, privacy allows one to experiment with activities, world views, preferences, without broadcasting the process to the entire world.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#4

Post by miguelrochefort » Sat, May 24, 2014, 9:01 PM UTC

tambourmajor wrote: post #2

I think that can be answered quite briefly: Malicious people exist and they can use things we consider private against you. We are inherently imperfect and thus we define a protected space in which we can can happily be imperfect without spending energy on worrying about it.

> Malicious people exist

Is it malicious to expose the truth? Who is to blame if others react badly to the truth? The "malicious" person or the ones that react negatively?

> things we consider private

Why do we consider anything to be private? Where do you draw the line? Do others need my permission to collect any information that relates to me? Why do we assume we have some exclusive right over any information?

> We are inherently imperfect

We all have positive and negative qualities. This is what makes us different from one another. How am I going to judge people if I can't know anything about them? Why do we limit this "privacy" to negative qualities, but tolerate that people with extraordinary qualities share them with the world? If the quest for equality is the reason behind allowing people a right to conceal imperfections, why don't we also stop people from bragging about their qualities?

> we define a protected space in which we can can happily be imperfect without spending energy on worrying about it.

This lead to a society that is used to see only the "good" side of people, but not their negative side. Not only does it skew perception of reality, but it increase standards and make it even harder to be yourself (including all your imperfections) when you're outside the "protected space". It seems to be like this would only lead to isolation, increased social pressure, more superficial conformism. At some point, letting a secret slip could literally ruin your life. This bubble will lead to nothing but more intolerance.

Would you find it silly if a group of people actively tried to build systems and tools to help homosexual people to stay in the closet? Because that's exactly how I see the fight for privacy.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#5

Post by miguelrochefort » Sat, May 24, 2014, 9:11 PM UTC

rohamg wrote: post #3

One very important benefit of privacy is it allows experimentation without commitment: because we live in a society that often rushes to label, pigeon-hole, and categorize, privacy allows one to experiment with activities, world views, preferences, without broadcasting the process to the entire world.

Sounds like you're describing an issue about society, not transparency.

As long as we keep in mind that "label[s], pigeon-hole[s], and categori[es]" don't have to be permanent, and that people usually change as they learn, I don't see a problem with them.

You can't really draw a line between "experimentation" and "commitment", as commitments usually become experimentations in hindsight. Unless we live all our lives in private, and only went in public when we were 100% sure that our positions about everything would never change (and that we're happy with them), I don't see this working very well.

Sure, we all make a lot of mistakes when starting something new, but this is not a reason to do these things in private. Not only does it probably slow down the learning process, but it also increase other people's expectations. If we no longer see people making mistakes, we'll start believing that mistakes are bad. If we have to hide whenever we do something new (as encourage by the privacy movement), we'll probably just stop experimenting new things.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#6

Post by milkcircle » Sat, May 24, 2014, 9:39 PM UTC

One reason is that exposing some forms of personal information can lead to discrimination. For instance, access to private medical records or to genetic information may allow insurance companies to discriminate against people they believe might be predisposed to certain health risks.

Additionally, there is a reason why people don't like revealing things about themselves (like their salaries, for example): it opens them up to judgment and allows society to comment on how they rank hierarchically within a certain community.

Privacy allows us to feel comfortable revealing only the information we think won't detriment us in the eyes of others, especially because this can have significant tangible effects on our lives.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#7

Post by greenyoda » Sat, May 24, 2014, 9:39 PM UTC

If you think privacy is useless, please reply to this comment by posting:

- Your name, address, phone number

- Your place of employment, income from all sources, net worth and valuation of your major assets (house, car, investments, etc.)

- All your social media accounts (please make sure that all information you've ever posted there is publicly accessible)

- Your credit card numbers, bank account numbers, social security number

- A list of political candidates you voted for or contributed money to

- Your religious background and current beliefs (if any)

- The names of all your friends, relatives and children

- Your health history, including any psychiatric problems you've ever suffered from

- A list of all illegal drugs you've ever tried (or other illegal acts you may have committed)

- Your sexual orientation, sexual preferences and a list of all your sexual partners

- Any other personal information you'd like to share with us

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#8

Post by tambourmajor » Sat, May 24, 2014, 10:42 PM UTC

miguelrochefort wrote: post #4

tambourmajor wrote: post #2

I think that can be answered quite briefly: Malicious people exist and they can use things we consider private against you. We are inherently imperfect and thus we define a protected space in which we can can happily be imperfect without spending energy on worrying about it.

> Malicious people exist Is it malicious to expose the truth? Who is to blame if others react badly to the truth? The "malicious" person or the ones that react negatively? > things we consider private Why do we consider anything to be private? Where do you draw the line? Do others need my permission to collect any information that relates to me? Why do we assume we have some exclusive right over any information? > We…

1. Truth can be misued for misguidance and I think it's easier to allow for a private space than to achieve a society that is not prone to misguidance.

2. Without going too much into the details I would personally prefer spatial declarations of private space. For example the space that is occupied by your home and the space that is constituted by a sphere that encloses your body. Ideally everyone should have the possibility to consciously decide which information leaves this space.

3. I think you misinterpret what I said. It's only about declaring a space in which you don't have to think too hard about the (wider) social implications of your actions and thoughts. It's more about protection than about equality.

4. Well, you are still free to reveal yourself within a confined or even public space (in person, using an avatar or anonymously). I could imgine too that this will amplify the endeavor for individual perfection (which is an inherently human trait I believe) but it seems to outweigh the downside of having to potentially explain all your actions and thoughts, or to achieve a society that is able to handle that.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#9

Post by maxerickson » Sat, May 24, 2014, 10:45 PM UTC

Privacy makes some people feel more comfortable. There doesn't need to be anything more to it than that.

There might still be situations where their privacy has to be balanced against some other consideration, but it's unlikely that a universal denial of privacy would be necessary to find the balance.

Re: Ask HN: Why is privacy something we should strive for?

#10

Post by 3rd3 » Sun, May 25, 2014, 12:32 AM UTC

miguelrochefort wrote: post #5

rohamg wrote: post #3

One very important benefit of privacy is it allows experimentation without commitment: because we live in a society that often rushes to label, pigeon-hole, and categorize, privacy allows one to experiment with activities, world views, preferences, without broadcasting the process to the entire world.

Sounds like you're describing an issue about society, not transparency. As long as we keep in mind that "label[s], pigeon-hole[s], and categori[es]" don't have to be permanent, and that people usually change as they learn, I don't see a problem with them. You can't really draw a line between "experimentation" and "commitment", as commitments usually become experimentations in hindsight. Unless we live all our lives i…

I think you are not considering that the range of privacy can be larger than complete isolation.