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Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

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Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#91
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Book-Seller-Neutrality? Shouldn't bookshops just be conduits for dead tree and electronic bits?

Why? If I ran a hometown bookstore and was required to carry crap I knew wouldn't sell and that ate up valuable shelf space that would be bad for business. I'm not sure why amazon should be required to do something like this either. They are free to carry / not carry whatever they like, per the contracts they sign etc. There is no "everyone is equal" treatment, nor should there be.

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Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#92

Honest questions here... What is supposed to happen here? This article and each of the others linked don't offer much beyond jabs at Amazon. As far as I can tell, publishers are unhappy with Amazon - period. Two years ago the hot news was about Amazon pricing books too low [1]. Now at least part of the complaint is that Amazon isn't discounting enough and allowing prices to approach list price - which I assume is set…

to be clear, the lawsuit was against apple and the publishers, who were accused of price fixing by refusing to participate in under-pricing books, but also refusing to price ebooks as high as ~$25. it was a really odd application of antitrust law at the time, since Amazon is the one with monopoly power, and price fixing typically means competitors agreeing to price things higher than the market would otherwise bear.…

"it was a really odd application of antitrust law at the time, since Amazon is the one with monopoly power"

The lawsuit was about price-fixing and collusion. It had nothing to do with "monopoly power" (which Amazon does not have now and did not have then).

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#93
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember that the majority of publishers just recently colluded with Apple to essentially fuck over Amazon. Well, that's certainly how the Justice Department chose to see it. That doesn't make that statement the objective truth. I still don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that the new entrant in a market is "fuck[ing] over" the dominant player. Especially when countless economists have weighed in sayi…

"corrective measures employed by Apple" what were the measures and what were they correcting? And how did the Justice Department get it wrong. Apple colluded with the publishers to set the price, and forced Amazon to sell for the same price. With mainly the people being screwed (well in some cases the publishers actually lost money too) Unfortunately the corrective measures taken SINCE the ruling having really made m…

> Apple colluded with the publishers to set the price, and forced Amazon to sell for the same price

Apple gave the publishers leverage to use with Amazon, which is a wee bit different. But I'll give you "colluded", because it doesn't really matter.

I wish Google would actually find the various articles I've read in the past about this, but my recollection is that various economists have explained that this sort of "corrective measure" is actually legal and the right course of action under certain circumstances, and the ebook market (with Amazon's near-total dominance) qualifies.

You say "mainly the people being screwed", but that's not true. Amazon tried to claim that prices were lower before Apple came along, but that's actually only true for some (admittedly popular) books. Prices on other books were higher before Apple. Not only that, but the low prices that Amazon was talking about was not actually a sustainable market, but instead was Amazon engaging in predatory pricing. And predatory pricing is not something that the DOJ is supposed to be in the business of defending.

Basically, many people have looked at the overall book market both before and Apple entered it, and found that, when looking at the entire market instead of just e.g. the NYT bestsellers list, prices were not higher after Apple showed up.

It's also worth pointing out that Apple was being accused of violating antitrust laws, which are essentially laws designed to prevent unfair monopolistic practices. It seems rather ridiculous to claim that a minority player in a market could be guilty of monopolistic practices, since that generally requires being a monopoly. It's even more absurd when one of the main goals of antitrust is to promote fair competition, and yet it was used to punish the only real competition that Amazon had in the market. Basically, the DOJ used fair competition laws to hand a government-sanctioned monopoly to a single company.

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I did a bit more digging, and what Apple was found guilty of was a "per se" violation of a horizontal price-fixing conspiracy using a series of vertical agreements. I've found a MacObserver article[1] that talks about a 30-page amici curiae brief filed by two economists explaining why Judge Cote's ruling was wrong.

[1]: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/economists-on-apple-e...

There's a 3-paragraph summary at that article, which should give you a good idea of what was wrong with the ruling.

I've seen a number of other articles since the ruling where other economists weigh in and say essentially the same thing, but Google is still being difficult.

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Edit: One comment about this brief says that the DOJ didn't make these considerations because it found Apple to be per se liable, which is to say, the DOJ considered the actions to be illegal regardless of any possible motivation. Some of the other economists I've referred to argued specifically against this point, saying that these kinds of vertical agreements are not a violation of the per se rule and that Judge Cote royally screwed up in applying it. Of course, Judge Cote's ruling also said she would consider Apple to have been guilty under a rule of reason as well, but I find it hard to believe given how much evidence there is that Apple's actions were indeed in its own independent business interest, and that these kinds of vertical agreements and the provisions they contained are not in fact illegal under these circumstances (my understanding is basically that they can be illegal when used by a dominant player in a market, because it's anti-competitive, but when used by a new entrant in a market with an existing dominant player, they are ok, but IANAL).

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#94
post #12

The main reason this is getting publicity is that the authors are getting punished but they have no power. Otherwise it's just a standard retailer/supplier conflict. Also, note that Hachette is one of the publishers involved in the e-book suit who settled, so not exactly a great history with Amazon.

"The main reason this is getting publicity is that the authors are getting punished but they have no power."

Sure they do. They can put the book on Amazon themselves and make 70% of retail rather than 15% of retail.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#95
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with this. I think that a 30% price difference is significant. In the current market, I think that publishers get far too large a fraction of the revenue and authors far too small. If the author creates the content and promotes the content (with the help of Amazon) what value is the publisher adding? Copyediting? Legitimacy stamp?

A better deal from Amazon than individual authors could get on their own.

Not true.

Amazon pays individual authors 70% of retail. That's far more than they get from any publisher.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the thing about a monopoly is it's totally squishy. There isn't a clear line you cross to become one because there is no clean way to define a market. Every customer places a different value on the product itself, the search and transportation cost of buying from alternative retailers, etc. So take Walmart. Do they have a local monopoly? First, question, on what? If you want to buy a television then they almost ce…

I think there's a second element to why a gallon of milk isn't $20: Walmart relies on not upsetting too many people, who collectively wield enough local political power to harm Walmart locally. It would only take a local wage initiative, for instance, to likely bother the closest Walmart. So there's an inherent incentive not to let prices rise so much that people are angry enough to get the government involved becaus…

That's true to an extent but I don't really buy it as the primary reason. Look at Comcast. Customers angry because your service is expensive and terrible? Hire an army of lobbyists, problem solved.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#97
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antitrust law is not well equipped to deal with actors who use their power to drive down prices and reduce profits.

Perhaps, but the particular tactic Amazon is employing here relies on their ability to raise price in a market in which they are dominant (physical book retailing) to acheive an advantage in negotiations related to another market (e-book retailing). It may be that their goal is to drive down prices in the e-book market, but that's orthogonal to whether the action relies on monopoly power in the physical book retail m…

The flaw in your argument is that they can't raise the price of that publisher's books in a market, they can only raise the price they charge on their own website. When Amazon raises their price for a particular book, that doesn't change the price it sells for anywhere else the book is available, and they aren't colluding with any of the other retailers to fix prices.

What they're doing is actually a demonstration of their lack of monopoly power. When they raise the price they charge for a book, any customers doing comparison shopping who want that book in particular will get it from a different retailer. If Amazon had monopoly power you would instead expect substantially all customers to either pay the higher price to Amazon or not buy the book from anyone.

The market characteristic that Amazon is taking advantage of is that if they raise the price for books from one publisher, it shifts impulse purchases from that publisher to another for customers looking through Amazon's website to find a new book to read. It's essentially the same strategy as putting the product of the publisher you don't like at the back of the store, or replacing mention of it in your promotional materials with mention of a competing product you also sell. The publisher cares a lot more than Amazon about which publisher's books Amazon sells more of, which provides Amazon with negotiating leverage against the publisher. All retailers have that leverage over their suppliers. It doesn't require monopoly power. Obviously being bigger gives you more leverage, but being big and having a monopoly are not the same thing.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#98

Honest questions here... What is supposed to happen here? This article and each of the others linked don't offer much beyond jabs at Amazon. As far as I can tell, publishers are unhappy with Amazon - period. Two years ago the hot news was about Amazon pricing books too low [1]. Now at least part of the complaint is that Amazon isn't discounting enough and allowing prices to approach list price - which I assume is set…

Yes, it does seem like publishers want two contradictory things from Amazon:

1. Don't you dare discount our ebooks!

2. Don't you dare stop discounting our paper books!

However, these positions are perfectly consistent. They're just consistent in a way that I suspect wouldn't occur to most HN readers.

What publishers really want from Amazon is simple: "Reverse, stop, or at least slow down this damn ebook transition!"

They don't say it that way for obvious reasons, but it is the common thread underneath their apparent insanity.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#99
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop with the mindless idea that the point of capitalism is only to drive down the price for consumers. The point is to provide an equilibrium between suppliers and customers. The difference between 12.99 and 9.99 doesn't hurt consumers and provides significant difference in paying authors. Amazon is unfairly trying to kill the suppliers for short term gains at the expense of the industry.

I'm sorry, but the difference between $12.99 and $9.99 is precisely a cost (hurt) to the consumer of $3. It's certainly a reduction in consumer surplus and, when multiplied by the millions of books sold every year, is a meaningful impact.

Not only is this measurable, but laws of supply and demand are pretty well established economic theory. I'm honestly surprised to see such gesticulation about economics in a start-up oriented forum.

Re: Amazon Flexes Its Muscles in Fight Against Publishers

#100
post #98

Honest questions here... What is supposed to happen here? This article and each of the others linked don't offer much beyond jabs at Amazon. As far as I can tell, publishers are unhappy with Amazon - period. Two years ago the hot news was about Amazon pricing books too low [1]. Now at least part of the complaint is that Amazon isn't discounting enough and allowing prices to approach list price - which I assume is set…

Yes, it does seem like publishers want two contradictory things from Amazon: 1. Don't you dare discount our ebooks! 2. Don't you dare stop discounting our paper books! However, these positions are perfectly consistent. They're just consistent in a way that I suspect wouldn't occur to most HN readers. What publishers really want from Amazon is simple: "Reverse, stop, or at least slow down this damn ebook transition!"…

You are absolutely correct.

They're like the entrenched interests at Kodak that tried to stop the development of digital cameras (which Kodak actually invented) to support film sales.

All they managed to do was ensure that the digital cameras were developed by companies other than Kodak, and now Kodak is bankrupt.

The same thing is happening with ebooks. In many genres, 50% or more of the best-selling ebooks are either indy or small press.

This doesn't end well for the big publishers, I'm afraid. It sure as hell didn't end well for Kodak.

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