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Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

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121–130 of 210 posts

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#121
Just check out. Hang an "out to lunch" sign on your brain.

There is no solution within your reach for management that is ignorant with respect to your job. Stop putting forth extra effort that will ultimately be wasted. Clearly, you have discovered serendipitously that no one can tell the difference between you doing your job well and you doing your job poorly. So stop trying. Just relax and do the first thing that could possibly work. Really build up some technical debt. Management probably does not even know what that is.

That way, you can use the ever-increasing bogosity of the code base as an argument for being resource constrained. Lobby for junior employees that report directly to you. The end goal is to set yourself up for a job hop into a better position at a better company.

The one you are working for now can be definitively marked as a dead end. So milk them for cash and emotionally disengage. Get your spiritual fulfillment by investing your creative talent elsewhere. Meanwhile, coast until you can bail out safely.

That's about what I'm doing at my crappy, soul-crushing job.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#122
Time to gently move on to something else. There is a secret they don't tell you early enough, there is no "prize/goal/win" at the end of your life, you just die. Your life is the sum total of all the time you spend with friends and family and colleagues. And every day of that life you spend fighting yourself is a day you will never get back, you will never be able to change, and you will never cherish.

Dealing with a rough situation that you have no external control over is one thing, dealing with a lousy job you do have control over it. Let go, walk out the door, and look for something more fulfilling.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#123
post #16

While I can 100% relate to your scenario, a big part of being a professional at any job (not just development) is being able to set aside your personal feelings and emotions and get your job done. It's good that you are getting your job done, but it seems that you are still having issues setting aside your personal feelings and emotions. This is pretty normal for inexperienced developers. It's something you should fo…

I like all your points, but option 2 is very intriguing. I've never had the time for that, given I use all my mental and physical capacities for my day job. So I'm conflicted; I just don't think I'd have enough time to do a side project to the standards I'd expect of myself. I think that's also why many posters here are saying 'use some new language feature X to make your work project more exciting' - basically addin…

I know a lot of people work that way (using new technologies in their day jobs) but personally I take my day job too seriously to do that. I learn new technologies by doing side projects. Then once I feel comfortable with them I can start using them in my day job. I don't want to look my boss or coworkers in the face and say "Yeah that fuck up was because I was using this project to learn a new thing."

I think you're over estimating how much time you need for a side project. You can even just spend a couple hours on a couple weekends a month on something. Or even every other month. You don't have to work on it every day or anything. That's the great thing about it being a side project. There's no rush. No timetable other than whatever you choose for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#124
Also I waste considerable amount of time trying to do things in the most readable, maintainable and simple way possible. This means weighing merits of different solutions and choosing one. I am a really hesitant decision maker, resulting in more wasted hours.

This time is not entirely wasted. Even in the worst case -- where the code you are so carefully writing winds up not being used after all -- you are getting good practice in code craftsmanship. The next time you are faced with a decision similar to one you are making now, you will make it more easily: not only have you considered the issues before, but you know how one of the possibilities actually worked out. This is how one builds experience.

I usually find that writing code slowly and carefully is in fact the fastest way to get it done, because it minimizes debugging and rewriting. There are exceptions, such as exploratory programming, when you know you're going to throw the thing away anyway, and in small utilities built for personal use; and there are times when getting something working quickly is important (for a demo, for instance) even though you know you'll have to rewrite it. But these are exceptions. When you're implementing important functionality that's going to be in the product for the foreseeable future and that others will have to maintain and build on, the slow, careful way is best.

It seems to me the real problem here is that although your managers value your work, they don't listen to your architectural opinions. That's a serious problem. Maybe at some point you'll need to tell them, "if you want it done that way, you'll have to find somebody else to do it". Pick your battle carefully though -- it needs to be a case where their way is clearly and substantially suboptimal.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#125

Oh boy, so I get to be the contrarian again. First of all, isn't it a bit dramatic to say "your entire being opposes" your task? It's not like you're out committing genocide or something. You're programming, and you have to work on a crappy programming task. Every programmer who ever worked a professional job has had to do this at some point. If the very fiber of your soul is wrapped up in your employer's MegaAccount…

Who says your job can't be something you enjoy? What if programming is what you'd be doing if you weren't at work? I know that's certainly the case for a lot of programmers I know.

>Who says your job can't be something you enjoy

This is unrealistic. Do you think an economy can survive with everyone doing what they enjoy? Do we have enough people who enjoy cleaning toilets, stocking shelves, and all the other menial, labor intensive jobs? This notion is a utopian, post currency (Star Trek Economy) fantasy.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#126
post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

I think this advice, while well intentioned and not exactly wrong, isn't helpful.

The problem is young programmers tend to be hot headed and emotional about their work. This is anti-professional.

While being motivated is great, and important for big projects, every job is going to involve tasks you disagree with or think are a "waste of time." Part of being a professional is doing them anyway, and doing them without getting bent out of shape about it. That's not a sign that your soul has been crushed or that you've lost your love of programming (or whatever), it's a sign that you're mature and realize that work is work sometimes.

If your job is an unrewarding nightmare and you're miserable, then by all means you should find a new one. I'd go so far as to say if you're unhappy with your job overall, find a new one.

But if you have to sometimes do tasks you don't agree with? That's just normal. If you go running for the hills every time you have to do something you don't agree with you'll never be anywhere for long.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#127

As a manager I've had to ask people to do work like this. I try to share it out as best as possible, so everyone's getting the least unpalatable tasks for them. I've also made myself available to talk through why it's required. Those conversations have taken my team and I to interesting places. I've discussed brand positioning with developers, and shared spreadsheets of time-to-value models with designers, at times g…

As others have said, thank you for articulating this so well. As a developer, I've often gotten feature requests which seem crazy at first, but then make sense once I understand better the context in which it will be used or the degree to which it will make a customer or other user happy.

At the same time, it's really valuable to have a manager (and other stakeholders) who listen to the "This __really__ complicates our code and will take X weeks to implement, why don't you try this as a procedural workaround ..." suggestions that I make at times.

I really agree with your point that this type of thing strengthens my investment in the team and the product.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#128
post #118
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations [...] Early on as a programmer, I was often in situations like you describe. [...] If I could go back to my early career I would mercilessly cut out all the shitty jobs I did You know, it's hard to believe it, but at some point parents forget what it felt like being a teenager, and senior developers being junior. I know I'm going h…

You are presuming a lot about what my early career looks like. Really I never worked any jobs as bad as what you describe. Well, maybe the time I did data entry during my first year of college. The longest I ever worked in a highly corporate environment was 7-8 months, but at least at that time I was doing something at least slightly cool (a port of Doom 2 back when that was a new game, and with which I had full auto…

I'm someone graduating from college in a few months, and this is one of the most striking things to me about a programmer's expected outlook on jobs. The career path of going and getting an internship, then becoming a junior developer, etc etc at some corporation is something that seems like it would suck the soul out of anyone that is even moderately creative.

During my first internship at a "normal" corporation, I felt exactly like septerr does now. I can't imagine following the career path most programmers go down, even if it is going to pay well. How did you avoid (or is it even possible to avoid) going through that corporate phase and skipping right to working on something that you may love but may harbor more intrinsic risk?

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#130

Just check out. Hang an "out to lunch" sign on your brain. There is no solution within your reach for management that is ignorant with respect to your job. Stop putting forth extra effort that will ultimately be wasted. Clearly, you have discovered serendipitously that no one can tell the difference between you doing your job well and you doing your job poorly. So stop trying. Just relax and do the first thing that c…

  > So stop trying. Just relax and ... build up some technical debt. 
  > Set yourself up for a job hop....
While that can work in the short term, I don't think it's a very professional thing to do long-term, especially when one couples it with lobbying for things to help you bail to a "better" company. Let go of your caring about the existence of technical debt __temporarily__, but then take some time to go back and address that later.

Our job as developers should not just be to churn out code, but to inform our managers of the costs of doing so. "This feature will take X weeks, this will take Y. We racked up some technical debt implementing Q and QQ, so we need to spend Z weeks addressing that before we can do QQQ." Most bosses like being told that you're making the code easier to maintain, as it means you will make future features happen faster.

I realize I'm lucky not to be in a burnout phase like you are. I just wanted to suggest caution for others when considering a plan to mess up the codebase and then leave -- how will our future coworkers (or later people that read our code) feel when we do that?

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