Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An open letter on feminism in tech

modelviewculture.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 335 posts

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#211

Post by bucketsbuckets »

jdp23 wrote: post #179
bucketsbuckets wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. May I ask on what evidence you base this assertion? Note that this is a much stronger claim than just "harassment happens"; you're claiming that, more likely than not, it is also happening in my organization.

Most women in tech I know have multiple examples of stuff like the authors describe happening to them. Multiple guys in this thread confirm that yes, it happens and is observable. Remember that the authors weren't only talking about harassment. And of course that doesn't mean it happens in your organization, but you can also see and come into contact with it elsewhere -- conferences, networking events, online discuss…

> Most women in tech I know have multiple examples of stuff like the authors describe happening to them. Multiple guys in this thread confirm that yes, it happens and is observable.

To reiterate, what you've demonstrated is that there are N anecdotes of sexual harassment in the industry, for some N > 0. (Set aside M anecdotes of men and women who have not personally encountered such a thing.) You have not demonstrated that "it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it."

Let's keep this discussion factual and avoid inflammatory hyperbole, please.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#212

Post by mreiland »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #82
anildash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

That's not the logic. It's more: "I'm an iOS user and every time an Android device is on the network my phone crashes." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Have any other Android users seen this?"

And then someone replies with "yes, I have a co-worker who had the same issue, here's how we fixed it..."

The question is, would anyone tell them they couldn't possibly know that since they don't use IOS?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#213

Post by anildash »

optimusclimb wrote: post #136
anildash wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of th…

I edited my post (only to add, not change it.) After reflection, I think it was a little off base, even if well intentioned.

I appreciate the thought and reflection, especially given that my response could reasonably be seen as snarky.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#214

Post by _bfhp »

rjknight wrote: post #198
epeus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commo…

> "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered. I'm not sure that this makes sense. Saying that someone's behaviour is unusual - not typical of most men - does not sound like sheltering them. Most men don't harass women, ergo the men that do are a minority whose views and behaviour are out of step with their peers. I think we need to say this more .

It makes sense, it is just nuanced. Try: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#215

Post by rjknight »

anildash wrote: post #114
optimusclimb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps…

Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of th…

It's not a question of sources, it's a question of being able to identify the thing when it happens. Women have no problem in identifying it, because it's directed at them. Men might have a problem identifying it, for various possible reasons. I think the poster you replied to was asking for opinions from other men about what they see happening in order to understand what kind of stuff is visible to men.

I have the same problem - I can't recall seeing anything that would qualify as harassment in any of my workplaces, and I would like to know if that's because I'm failing to see it, or if there's another reason.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#216

Post by beat »

mreiland wrote: post #192
beat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already understand the roots of the problem quite well... comparing to other industries won't make much difference. 1. Male-dominated environment, women are a significant minority. 2. Inexcusable tolerance of sexist behavior - not calling it out when we see it. 3. "Why are you blaming me? I'm not one of those guys. Men might listen to you if you'd just stop the blanket accusations." (extra credit: count how many c…

it should be noted that pointing out #3 doesn't make it an invalid point, and it certainly has nothing to do with why the issue exists in the first place.

Read sentence 3 of my point #3 again...

Men might listen to you if you'd just stop the blanket accusations.

That's the (sometimes) unspoken meaning behind the reactionary defensiveness of so many men here. It appears in the (paraphrased) "I dunno if I can believe a bunch of women's anecdotes. Have any men seen anything like this? I could believe a man." And the ever-popular "At least this isn't quite as bad as those crazy man-hating feminazis!"

Saying "Hey, stop blaming me!" is really just a softcore version of "I don't take you seriously, because you're a woman." Instead of looking to escape the blame, men should be asking how such a blanket condemnation happened (and not "Because women are crazy"), and what they can do about it. And no, getting defensive and whining about how women are picking on them isn't the thing to do.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#217

Post by mreiland »

ankey1 wrote: post #125
Ma8ee wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many women ask that more men would stand up for them. I think that many men would if they actually saw something occur, but many just don't see anything. In my own career I have only once seen anything that even looked like harassment or discrimination, and that was almost 20 years ago. It does not mean that I question these women's experiences, but I do think it means that the "bullies" know that what they do isn't…

Woman developer here. That's the one piece of advice I give to men who ask what they can do to help. I've had way more men come to me privately after an incident to apologize for being a witness and saying nothing than have actively stepped in to stop what was going on. I wish it were the other way around.

why should they? I mean that honestly because context matters.

Why didn't you say something? Why should they be expected to step up and say something if you yourself are not willing to (was it a superior, for example?). Was there some brouhaha in which they sat silent while you had to defend yourself?

And why not ask them if you can submit their name to HR as a witness to the behavior instead of getting disappointed in them for not doing it themselves?

At the end of the day, the only person who is ultimately expected to stand up for you, is you. It's that way regardless of gender.

edit: I still don't understand why HN allows replies to some posts and not others, but to respond to the post below me.

Because it's unfair to ask a man to put themselves at risk protecting a women when she, herself, refuses to put herself at risk. This isn't about male vs female, this is about a person putting themselves at risk for another person, and the fairness of it.

This is specifically why I asked for context.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#218

Post by lhnz »

mreiland wrote: post #177
lhnz wrote: post #75

>> We are not the 'nice feminists' of this community. > Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice. In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they…

>I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women. However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interaction…

I'm not pandering to anybody. I actually believe what I wrote.

But I do have a bias: I have a bias towards diplomacy. We all have biases and the sooner we admit that we're fallible minds that have lived just one life, not the objective thinkers we wish to present to our audience, the sooner we can begin to respect and listen to each other.

  > There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, 
  > and /or MRA jerks? Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks?
  > Why are you painting MRA as jerks, but apologizing to feminists
  > if you've accidentally offended them?
Not all MRA are jerks. Not all feminists are jerks.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that a large percentage of men were misogynists. I meant to say that it was a slightly larger percentage than is normally visible and that this was mostly because in a 50/50 male/female environment they would self-censor as well as have less reason to feel the way they do while in the current 90/10 environment (or whatever it is) they do not need to.

I think the article was unusually fair and diplomatic for a tech gender piece. I wanted to repay this by commenting on my own opinions in as careful, constructive and fair way as I know how to. If I was to have posted an inflammatory rant about how angry feminists were just as bad as misogynists and then have tried to equate them using some ridiculous objective-appearing seesaw as if I was the divine judge of a gender-war then I'd be completely arguing against what I was arguing for: diplomacy and the acceptance and understanding of each other's problems as a result of there being a lack of diversity.

I want a better way of acting together, not to win a battle.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinions but you are way too confident of the truth of what you're saying to signal rationality.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#219

Post by _bfhp »

joshuapants wrote: post #210
_bfhp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty lazy. Understanding radical feminism and its context both in the 70s and today takes time, reading, and empathy. You're opting for feel-good MRA and it's boring.

I don't identify as an "MRA" nor do I think your assessment of my post as "boring" is cogent. In fact, I would consider your attempted ad-hominem lazy.

Your assumption that I'm actually opting-in to standard rules of debate rather than just making a general comment is also boring, for the same reason your other post was: I've seen it before, it's old. You aren't wrong, you're just uninformed. You should read more of what women write.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#220

Post by mreiland »

makomk wrote: post #46
optimusclimb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps…

Why should he be less snarky? After all, the tech industry supposedly loves straight-talking engineers like Linus Torvalds who don't beat around the bush and tell people bluntly why they're wrong - so much so that we even let them get away with gratuitous personal insults and misguided arguments.

There's a clear difference between a technical discussion and a social one. Do you think Linus is this way to everyone in every facet of his life?

context.

Post reply on HN