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Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

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Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#381

Post by pdonis »

yebyen wrote: post #372
pdonis wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure Netflix just paid Comcast They most certainly did; and what's more, the transit provider Netflix was using prior to paying Comcast was, IIRC, Cogent, not Level3.

So, then this whole idea that Level3 is the only one having problems with these five last-mile ISPs is bunk? Level3's wikipedia page still says they deliver Netflix. Now you're saying they don't even host Netflix. What are Level3's other major clients? I have to imagine there are bigger fish than Apple/iTunes (maybe I'm all wet), they are the only other major client mentioned on the wiki page.

> this whole idea that Level3 is the only one having problems with these five last-mile ISPs is bunk?

I think so, but it's only fair to note that it's very difficult to get accurate information about this, since all of the parties have a strong interest in not making all the details public, at least not while they're jockeying for position.

> Level3's wikipedia page still says they deliver Netflix.

No, it says (if you go look at the reference that's footnoted) that Netflix was about to switch to Level3 (from Cogent, although that specific reference doesn't say so) as as transit provider, and Comcast used that to try to extract peering fees from Level3 based on an expected increased level of traffic. When Level3 refused, Comcast went to Netflix and got them to pay for direct connection to Comcast's network, bypassing any transit provider.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#382

Post by dvanduzer »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #288
yaddayadda wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah already has something like this called UTOPIA ( http://www.utopianet.org/about-utopia/ ). The participating cities run fiber optic lines. The city pays for the fiber optic lines (lots and lots and lots of political controversy about this!) then subscribers can pick and choose what services and from which providers they want. I'm in a participating city and love it! Unfortunately politics, both the governmental a…

That is pretty awesome, I've sent them email to see if we can use some of the work they have done in this space.

My work email archive from a decade ago is hard to search, but when I sent a similar email, I got back a reference to a study of broadband in Japan (?) about early adopters in fiber-to-the-curb communities...

They essentially found that when you installed a network like this in a neighborhood, the economic growth in that neighborhood almost immediately changed trajectory (upward) relative to similar communities without these networks.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#383

Post by feld »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

Madison, WI sort of has this. It's called the MUFN network.

http://www.mufn.org

The different ISPs etc in the city can sign contracts with the city and get access to the MUFN fiber network. The city owns the main fiber network and does repair/maintenance. The city can take ownership of any lateral you build where the conduit is 3" or more if they desire. Also, they can take it if they decide to use it to hook up traffic signals, etc. It's much more complicated than I've detailed but it's really a partnership with the city and ultimately they can take ownership of any fiber you build off it if it would benefit the city as a whole, while still allowing you access of course.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#384

Post by martinald »

lugg wrote: post #336
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that wireless is a shared medium. If you have a certain amount of spectrum, you can transfer a finite number of bits per second using it, and that capacity is shared between all devices in range. The bandwidth available in a certain chunk of spectrum is a physical limit. There is no way to expand capacity other than by allocating more spectrum, and radio spectrum is extremely scarce. So the more users…

Thanks mostly confirming what I suspected. I did think we would be able to use the spectrum more efficiently over time with better, more precise measurements but my guess is that will scale to its own limits a lot faster than a hard line will.

Much like procesing power and moore's law, we're getting very close to shannon's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem.

Wireless isn't this huge gamechanger that people may think. To beat shannon's law you would need so many base stations in the long term it looks awfully like what we have now with DSL/Fiber/DOCSIS and wifi APs.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#385

Post by martinald »

malandrew wrote: post #313
ChuckMcM wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, allow me to share with you a bit of my strategy. There is a case to be made that much of the tearing up of the streets is a function of people laying down multiple communication infrastructures along side each other. We looked though the permits for the last 12 months and compared that activity to a on-going repaving and road maintenance work. There are several interesting variables at play in that, cost…

Exactly, TBH I don't understand why we don't have the conduit equivalent of the shipping container. i.e. a completely standardized, royalty free design for laying cables in urban environments that are completely interchangeable and manufacturable by any company. From there, the city can just lease the space on a basis of (meters * diameter * demand coefficient for a particular route) Does such a standardized conduit…

Yes, but there is still a very heavy cost in maintaining these conduits. They often collapse under a road (for example), which means closing the road off, digging it up, and then repaving the whole thing which is very expensive to serve a few houses or whatever.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#386

Post by busterarm »

couchand wrote: post #329
busterarm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. I work for a cable/fiber ISP. Customers always blame the ISP. Even when the problem is the feed (like with CW's networks last month)...or when some dipshit construction company digs where they aren't supposed to. Luckily I don't work for one of the horrible ISPs that everyone hates, but we're definitely more in the blame-receiving business than is warranted. Folks don't understand the complexity involved in…

Wait, did you just call broadband internet a "utility"? As in a Title II utility?

We provide phone service as well/primarily.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#387

Post by busterarm »

singlow wrote: post #305
busterarm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. I work for a cable/fiber ISP. Customers always blame the ISP. Even when the problem is the feed (like with CW's networks last month)...or when some dipshit construction company digs where they aren't supposed to. Luckily I don't work for one of the horrible ISPs that everyone hates, but we're definitely more in the blame-receiving business than is warranted. Folks don't understand the complexity involved in…

When the customers call you, it is because they blame you. You never hear from the ones who don't blame you.

That's not entirely true, but the majority of them do.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#388

Post by exelius »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #378
exelius wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost to maintain fiber is not materially different than the cost to maintain copper. You're right; and costs to maintain copper run about 5-10% of initial costs PER YEAR. Physical networks with lots of endpoints are very expensive to maintain.

> You're right; and costs to maintain copper run about 5-10% of initial costs PER YEAR. Physical networks with lots of endpoints are very expensive to maintain. We already have physical networks. Maintaining them is a fixed cost.[1] You can't eliminate it because you can't reasonably expect to replace the entirety of Cable TV and U-verse with cellular, so the money might as well be going to maintain fiber rather than…

$300-500 billion is a lot to install a national fiber network because "we might as well". If they're going to cost the same to operate, what do we get in exchange for this $500 billion investment? The ability to watch Netflix videos at a higher quality? A slightly lower cable bill? (since the cost to maintain won't be significantly lower, the bill won't be either)

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here -- this is how the government thinks about things. We have an existing infrastructure that is less than optimal, but it still functions and is in no danger of imminent collapse. Contrast with our healthcare system which barely functions and is on the verge of effective collapse. Or our public schools and police departments, which have collapsed in a number of cities.

In short, it's hard to drum up political support for large infrastructure projects even if you can show the need. There has to be a demonstrable catastrophic impact if we don't do the project, which just isn't the case with broadband.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#389

Post by opendais »

rlpb wrote: post #209
kasey_junk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert, but I'm reasonably certain that Cable providers in the UK are also not required to provide ISP access via their networks.

No, they are not. Otherwise I'd be using one.

Yes but he is claiming the US system works like the British system...when it doesn't.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#390

Post by smutticus »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #370
smutticus wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That linked preso was terribly salesy. He did a poor job of actually backing up some of his graphs with data. He has a point when he talks about NBNCo's CPE device offering. But that's not really a big deal. Most of his griping seems like nitpicking. Te point of the NBN is getting fiber in the ground that no one company owns. Once that is done all of his other complaints can be dealt with. We can argue incessently ov…

> That linked preso was terribly salesy. Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I think by the time Simon gave that particular presentation he'd been saying the same stuff on a regular basis for a good two years, so it started to sound really rehearsed. Have a look at some of his older videos eg. [1] Although, that is, to a major degree, just how Simon sounds when he talks. I don't think you fully understand the impli…

I've been trying to follow NBN Co since I first heard about it 2-3 years ago, but it's tough not being in AU. Thanks for giving me more to think about, and some more links to read.

It sounds like the NBN that was planned is not the NBN that you guys are getting, and that sucks.

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