US 'in denial' over poor maths standards • Hacker News Board

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#21

Post by relaytheurgency » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

joelrunyon wrote: post #3

noobermin wrote: post #2

I think the thing that distresses me the most is that any attempt that has been made to alleviate the situation (like the common core) has been stamped "big government" by people who seem to _not_ understand the urgency of this situation. I'm out of ideas. What do we do? EDIT: added a not. Wow did that change what I meant to say.

Have you read through common core? That crap is confusing.

Common Core is much more legible than the prior standards. That being said, it is a framework and not a solution that should be applied blindly at any opportunity.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#22

Post by alanlewis » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

relaytheurgency wrote: post #18

I taught high school physics for a semester and the math abilities of these students (many considered top students) were abysmal. Somehow several of these students had received As and Bs in Algebra 2 but were unable to transform f = ma into a = f/m. They also had a very flawed understanding of how to solve quadratics. I later realized that the issue is that mathematics is often taught as procedural. Students are taug…

Well, surely more standardized testing will fix that right up.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#23

Post by yonran » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:44 PM UTC

kevinpet wrote: post #20

yonran wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? I just looked it up[1]. The common core math standard looks very readable and reasonable, and it’s not even very big (93 pages). Is there anything in particular that you found confusing, inappropriate, or overly prescriptive? For example, in Grade 7, there are about 50 requirements, one of which is “Use proportional relationships to solve multistep ratio and percent problems. Examples: simple interest, tax, mar…

Common core invents new arithmetic techniques that no one knows. It's the worst idiocy of reinventing the world.

Is that anywhere in the standard itself, or are you criticizing a particular textbook?

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#24

Post by mikegioia » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:44 PM UTC

aurelian wrote: post #15

josephschmoe wrote: post #4

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

Could this be explained in part by people who are good at math tending to make more money than people who are bad at math? http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/2...

It has nothing to do with that. Wealth in this country is in no way correlated to math ability.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#25

Post by skywhopper » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

I don't dispute the general findings of the study summarized by the article, but who's choosing the images that go along? The article opens with a mention of the "deep South" and is accompanied by a photo of a rusted bus in a field?

The middle picture with the caption "There is a complacency about mainstream US education standards" shows an anonymous residential street. And the final picture captioned "Massachusetts has high results by international standards" shows a gleaming, gated, gold-domed building [Update: turns out its the Massachusetts State House--that's a fair comparison with a rusty bus in a Mississippi field].

So kids in Mississippi attend school in rusty old buses, whild kids in Massachussetts go to pristine palatial academies, I guess? Also, it turns out there are streets with houses in the US.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#26

Post by stillsut » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:47 PM UTC

josephschmoe wrote: post #4

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

Having gone to school in MA, I know educational spending ($/student) here is inversely correlated with performance.

But I'm not really worried about national average, state average, even school average: there just needs to be the opportunity to succeed for individual students, wherever they're located.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#27

Post by SixSigma » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:48 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #12

UK 'in denial' over pluralization of the word 'math'.

It's not a plural, it's a contraction of mathematics.

Curiously I think Americas still say they study physics.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#28

Post by mikegioia » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #16

josephschmoe wrote: post #4

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

I totally agree and am depressed that places like inner cities have such a hard time getting more charter schools and competition that would give these kids and their families a shot at a decent education. Is it politics? Teachers unions? Getting good admin people? What's holding back these places from getting ahead? As a comparison, my sister lives on the outskirts of a large metro area and their school has been tea…

Honestly, the problem is a collection of so many problems that it's very difficult to really even assess the situation properly. It could be the overemphasis on standardized testing. It could be the lack of support teachers get in inner cities and the fact that they have to babysit 50% of the time. It could be the public school system's unwillingness to adapt. It could be the unions fighting tooth and nail to prevent more charter schools from opening. It could even be the charter schools not actually working!

Personally, I think the problem is that the public school system can't work well enough in poor areas. I think those children need a completely different education system to work for them (longer hours, after school programs, school uniforms!, etc).

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#29

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #16

josephschmoe wrote: post #4

In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey. What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raf…

I totally agree and am depressed that places like inner cities have such a hard time getting more charter schools and competition that would give these kids and their families a shot at a decent education. Is it politics? Teachers unions? Getting good admin people? What's holding back these places from getting ahead? As a comparison, my sister lives on the outskirts of a large metro area and their school has been tea…

I'm curious what you mean by "teaching STEM", do you mean a particular emphasis on STEM? Because most schools at least cover the science and math part, with varying degrees on the technology and engineering (often limited by teacher availability and financial resources). If they don't cover those things then they aren't really covering any state's high school curriculum.

Re: US 'in denial' over poor maths standards

#30

Post by noobermin » Wed, May 21, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

gph wrote: post #10

noobermin wrote: post #2

I think the thing that distresses me the most is that any attempt that has been made to alleviate the situation (like the common core) has been stamped "big government" by people who seem to _not_ understand the urgency of this situation. I'm out of ideas. What do we do? EDIT: added a not. Wow did that change what I meant to say.

It'll really require a culture shift, starting with the parents. I don't know much about school systems in other parts of the country, but going to school in Maryland there wasn't a lack of mathematical support and teaching. The kids who excelled and wanted to push themselves got all the support they needed. And usually it was kids with intelligent parents that pushed the importance of education and mathematics on th…

It depends on when you start to force it down their throats :) The earlier in their education that they are pushed to reason more rigorously (again, within reason) the easier it will be for them to accept mire rigorous education earlier. Still, I really agree with you though that a cultural shift will be best, but I'm not sure how this ever will happen.