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Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#71

Post by jacquesm »

jhuckestein wrote: post #68

FWIW, I'd remove GWT from consideration. I heard that it's shortlisted for end-of-life at Google because it's a hassle to work with. Anecdotally, I agree with that. I once built a product on GWT because it impressed me so much on paper. Static typing, compiling permutations of your app and loading only what's needed, optimization of stylesheets, rendering only on the client etc. It seemed perfect. IIRC the two main i…

Wow. That's going to piss off quite a few people if google EOL's GWT and they know about it today but are not communicating it to the outside world.

Google has a habit of pushing tech out for people to build on and then pulling the rug right out from under them.

A citation would really help here but 'I heard' makes me realize that will probably not be forthcoming.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#72

Post by shaunol »

FTA: "I still haven’t forgiven Microsoft for their countless misdeeds so Asp/C#/F# are all right out. That may be shooting myself in the foot here (cut off my nose to spite my face), but contributing to this decision is that I work exclusively with linux (both on desktops, laptops and servers) so the MS ecosystem has become totally unfamiliar to me and I don’t like running windows on servers (though, of course there are some workarounds possible here and Mono is quite good). So, the L in my LAMP is firmly established. And besides, I don’t have a lawyer on the payroll to make sure that my licenses are all read, ok’d and acceptable."

I really think the author is missing out here - for the sake of just sticking with what they know and not wanting to do any actual research, it's impossible to come up with an actual objective choice. So misinformed, I get that .NET/C# development is not everybody's cup of tea but I think it's crazy to title an article "Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade" without even evaluating an extremely popular option due to simple disinterest. The lawyer comment is just irrational fear (and I get is probably meant to be a bit of a gibe towards Microsoft's licensing schemes), unless you're writing something completely from scratch, you need to be aware of the licenses of ANY library/framework you depend on, even if they're free.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#73

Post by pling »

lmm wrote: post #58
pling wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does standard good old fashioned web apps as well: https://dropwizard.github.io/dropwizard/manual/views.html Don't forget that old style web apps are basically REST frameworks that render content with a content type of text/html...

> Don't forget that old style web apps are basically REST frameworks that render content with a content type of text/html... They really aren't. A REST API wants to be simple and orthogonal; if you want two different pieces of data you make two different calls, so they're well suited to the "one controller per URL" paradigm. A traditional web app needs to combine and reuse components on every page (e.g. you might hav…

Fair point there!

JSF it is :(

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#74

Post by pmontra »

epaga wrote: post #7

This is an exciting read, kind of like Game of Thrones for web frameworks. Re: why there were so many "PLAY!" results in Google, that would likely depend on the query you use. Something like "play framework" would probably match for any page where someone said "I will play with this framework". ...which is another reason why "Go" was such a bad idea for a language name, BTW.

I agree.

go: about 2,550,000,000 results. go language: about 3,630,000,000 results. golang: about 1,950,000 results.

I wish the poster published the Google query strings he used because I get very different results. Examples: gorest: 984,000 results vs 6580 in the post. ruby on rails: 11,900,000 vs 258,000.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#75

Post by jacquesm »

vishnugupta wrote: post #63
cageface wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the brightest programmers I've ever met have struggled to get their heads around Haskell. Enough of them that I don't think it's really a PR issue or a lack of good introductory materials. I'm wiling to take the claims on faith that Haskell's design eliminates a lot of common programming errors but I've been listening to predictions of Haskell's emergence into the mainstream for almost 15 years now and, from…

> I used to be a bench chemist in a pharmaceutical company and the tools we used to develop new drug candidates and the tools we used to put them into mass production were radically different. I don't see why software should be any different. Let Haskell be the proving ground for new ideas and we can cherry pick the best ones for simpler languages later. This is a very interesting observation. I would hazard a guess…

I don't think the credit for the java implementation of 'Lambda' should go to Haskell pioneering it and proving it useful. First class functions were present in lots of other languages, most notably the lisp family long before.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#76

Post by camus2 »

fenguin wrote: post #21

"JavaScript web frameworks seem to have a half-life of about 6 months..." Express [1] has been the dominant framework for Node.js since 2009-2010. What frameworks are you talking about? [1] https://github.com/visionmedia/express

I wouldnt consider Express as a framework.

It's just a router and a few middleware. Hapi or Actionhero are frameworks though rest ones.Express is definetly not a framework,it doesnt do anything much.

Writing Spring like, Symfony like frameworks is hard in nodejs. Libs are bad,often tightly coupled,and frankly nobody's maintaining nothing on the long run.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#77

Post by tormeh »

tikhonj wrote: post #17

I (naturally) think that the article's summarily dismissing Haskell is unfortunate. It's probably just the result of poor PR on Haskell's part. Haskell is not only for surpassingly intelligent people, or even optimized for them. If anything, it's the opposite: one of its core tenants is that we're not smart enough to reason about our programs in most languages. Much of the design work focuses on unloading complexity…

The problem with Haskell is its syntax. Too many arbitrary and traditionless things to memorize. It's curious that the Haskell developers try to one-up the rest of the language space in nearly every other space, but choose such a weird and unhelpful syntax.

Look at Python: The only reason people started to use it is because of the syntax. Now it's slowly eating Matlab and R in science - two specialized languages beaten in their own domain by a general purpose one because the general purpose one has nicer syntax.

How great wouldn't it have been to have a Haskell-like language with a Python-like syntax? But no, Haskell needs a "first-class syntax", as if keystrokes are the limiting factor in development.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#78

Post by arethuza »

pmontra wrote: post #55
arethuza wrote: post #27

Interesting views on Python - I decided to start using it for personal projects after trying Go for a bit. Initially I hated the significant whitespace, and indeed many other things, but I stuck with it and I find it all rather elegant - I certainly haven't noticed any huge problems with dependencies but I've probably stuck with pretty mainstream ones (e.g. Requests). I now rather like significant whitespace and ofte…

I had enough syntax errors appearing after a copy and paste that ended up with difficult to spot unaligned code that I decided to use Python only for little scripts and when I'm forced to use it and nothing else would do. The problem with Python is that editors don't have hints to autoalign the code for us. Same problem with templating languages like HAML and Slim which, oh the irony, were born for Rails. Nevertheles…

I must admit that I only really took to Python once I got IDE support (initially in Visual Studio with PVTS and for the last while with PyCharm).

I'm very happy with PyCharm.

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#79

Post by higherpurpose »

Google could give a huge boost in confidence in Go, tomorrow (or rather within 2 years) - just make Go the official main language to use for writing Android apps and start deprecating Java.

Once it does that, I don't think there will be any doubt in anyone's mind that Go has less chance of survival than say Java. In fact, Java will immediately lose confidence once Android drops Java (in a reasonable 3-5 year timeframe).

Re: Choosing a Web Framework/Language Combo for the Next Decade

#80

Post by jacquesm »

pmontra wrote: post #74
epaga wrote: post #7

This is an exciting read, kind of like Game of Thrones for web frameworks. Re: why there were so many "PLAY!" results in Google, that would likely depend on the query you use. Something like "play framework" would probably match for any page where someone said "I will play with this framework". ...which is another reason why "Go" was such a bad idea for a language name, BTW.

I agree. go: about 2,550,000,000 results. go language: about 3,630,000,000 results. golang: about 1,950,000 results. I wish the poster published the Google query strings he used because I get very different results. Examples: gorest: 984,000 results vs 6580 in the post. ruby on rails: 11,900,000 vs 258,000.

The google results should be easily reproducible, I simply used the exact same query string for every framework, "{framework name} framework", going on the assumption here that relatively speaking this will give an idea of how much information there is out there on a given framework. Probably it would have been better to use google trends for this using suitable criteria.
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