The Millionaire Cop Next Door • Hacker News Board

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#11

Post by DeadHitchhiker » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:11 AM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #6

DeadHitchhiker wrote: post #3

It's fantastic how articles like these trot out figures like '$80k a year!' as if we're all supposed to be shocked and appalled that someone is making around what it costs to have a decent home and raise a family. I guess we really do need to pay our greedy firemen and teachers less, they have had it too good for too long making a decent wage and deserve to go right on the scrapheap with the rest of the trash in this…

Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? I also think it should be adjustable depending where you are living. Do you live in the area and so plowing some of that money back in to the local economy? If not there should be a reduction. England is reducing some benefits for those who live abroad and thus not spending money in the country.

> Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working?

Yes. Why not? Because that offends your sensibilities about work? Because you feel that people should work until they're 65~70 to retire, if they ever manage to? Right now a number of school teachers are working until their late 60s to make a pittance upon retirement, trading down from houses to mobile homes to even make their retirement manageable. Do you feel these people aren't as worthy as others making obscene amounts of money as they essentially raise the nation's children for them?

Your entire supposition either buys into the myth that there isn't enough to go around or worse, that you simply believe because we treat the majority of our labor pool like shit that anyone daring not to is in the wrong.

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#12

Post by declan » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:15 AM UTC

Forbes is just now reporting on the obvious: $2 million in pension benefits per retiree is becoming increasingly unaffordable for many cities. (Also because municipal workers in some states can switch jobs to a nearby city and get a second pension, that can jump to $4 million per person.)

In the San Francisco bay area we have this nearby example:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870362530... "The study also found that lavish pay and benefit packages were a root cause of the city's problems. In Vallejo compensation packages for police captains top $300,000 a year and average $171,000 a year for firefighters. Regular public employees in the city can retire at age 55 with 81% of their final year's pay guaranteed. Police and fire officials can retire at age 50 with a pension that pays them 90% of their final year's salary every year for life and the lives of their spouses."

And another example in California, where residents may be required to pay more in taxes (it's already the highest-taxed state) because of political mismanagement and ballooning pension benefits:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230481500... "Yet government pension costs are soaring as the bills that politicians postponed during the hard economic times come due. No less than Warren Buffett warned this week that "local and state financial problems are accelerating, in large part because public entities promised pensions they couldn't afford." .. Calpers also voted last month to dun state taxpayers for an additional $1.2 billion a year. And lo, the state Legislative Analyst's Office says that California State Teachers' Retirement System (Calstrs) says it needs $5.3 billion to $5.7 billion more annually by 2020 to pay down its $71 billion shortfall. That's more than California spends on the University of California and Cal State colleges."

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#13

Post by nilsimsa » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:15 AM UTC

noname123 wrote: post #4

I think it's great that police officers, teachers and gov't employees with seniority make six figures with pension in some of the better unionized municipalities. Their work provide a valuable and concrete service to the community. I think startup enthusiasts on the other hand are kind of like starting a band, providing entertainment/art for an audience and for the performer to satisfy an itch. Life is a finite thing…

I just think we shouldn't be bankrupting the state and cities to pay for these pensions.

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#14

Post by patio11 » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:17 AM UTC

I sympathize with the general direction of the criticism ("defined benefits pensions are much, much more valuable -- and expensive -- than people typically give them credit for"), but $2 million is strictly superior to a $80k annuity, even if one's assumption is 4% annualized post-inflation returns or, more pessimistically, a 4% safe draw-down rate. Cash doesn't expire when you expire, pensions (mostly) do.

The fair cash value of the pension is closer to $1 million. (Please accept this as a handwavy approximation as I'm on a train -- you can probably find any number of calculators on the Internet which would give you a more exact calculation.)

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#15

Post by patio11 » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:23 AM UTC

declan wrote: post #12

Forbes is just now reporting on the obvious: $2 million in pension benefits per retiree is becoming increasingly unaffordable for many cities. (Also because municipal workers in some states can switch jobs to a nearby city and get a second pension, that can jump to $4 million per person.) In the San Francisco bay area we have this nearby example: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870362530... "The st…

There also exists a culture in California of systematically looting the pension system via "spiking", where everyone knows the formula of the pension weights the last year's pay most heavily, and engages in a game of "I'll scratch your back and someone will scratch mine in N years" whereby people are allowed sudden bumps in seniority / job title / overtime hours months before retirement, to no legitimate governmental purpose, with the sole objective of increasing their pension's value. There are a variety of reforms designed to address this, from speedbumps like "OK, we'll use the average of the last 3 years" to making spiking outright illegal. The common argument against illegalizing spiking is, I kid you not, that spiking is so ingrained in the cultural mores and expectations of California public servants that to deny spiking for new retirees would be grievously unfair to them when compared to Of-Course-I-Spiked-Everyone-Does retirees.

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#16

Post by adventured » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:24 AM UTC

declan wrote: post #12

Forbes is just now reporting on the obvious: $2 million in pension benefits per retiree is becoming increasingly unaffordable for many cities. (Also because municipal workers in some states can switch jobs to a nearby city and get a second pension, that can jump to $4 million per person.) In the San Francisco bay area we have this nearby example: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870362530... "The st…

Forbes has been reporting on looming pension problems for munis for the last 15 years at least, and that's just what I can remember back to.

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#17

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:27 AM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #6

DeadHitchhiker wrote: post #3

It's fantastic how articles like these trot out figures like '$80k a year!' as if we're all supposed to be shocked and appalled that someone is making around what it costs to have a decent home and raise a family. I guess we really do need to pay our greedy firemen and teachers less, they have had it too good for too long making a decent wage and deserve to go right on the scrapheap with the rest of the trash in this…

Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? I also think it should be adjustable depending where you are living. Do you live in the area and so plowing some of that money back in to the local economy? If not there should be a reduction. England is reducing some benefits for those who live abroad and thus not spending money in the country.

[deleted]

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#18

Post by bsder » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:30 AM UTC

melling wrote: post #8

DeadHitchhiker wrote: post #3

It's fantastic how articles like these trot out figures like '$80k a year!' as if we're all supposed to be shocked and appalled that someone is making around what it costs to have a decent home and raise a family. I guess we really do need to pay our greedy firemen and teachers less, they have had it too good for too long making a decent wage and deserve to go right on the scrapheap with the rest of the trash in this…

The real question is can we afford it. Public pensions are not fully funded while the employee is working. In many cases there won't be enough people paying their benefits in the future so taxes will need to be increased or benefits cut.

We can afford it if the people in charge of the pensions would put the money away when they're supposed to aka NOW.

Instead, everybody treated pension funds like piggy banks, looted them, and now want to run away with the money with the "Oh they're so greedy."

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#19

Post by adventured » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:30 AM UTC

DeadHitchhiker wrote: post #11

bruceb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? I also think it should be adjustable depending where you are living. Do you live in the area and so plowing some of that money back in to the local economy? If not there should be a reduction. England is reducing some benefits for those who live abroad and thus not spending money in the country.

> Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? Yes. Why not? Because that offends your sensibilities about work? Because you feel that people should work until they're 65~70 to retire, if they ever manage to? Right now a number of school teachers are working until their late 60s to make a pittance upon retirement, trading down from houses to mobile homes to even make their reti…

Why not? Because the math doesn't work out in the end. Never has, never will. You can't raise taxes high enough to make it all work, and you can't force people to stay in those munis and pay the taxes. It's a utopian government fantasy that is collapsing and taking municipal well-being down with it.

Re: The Millionaire Cop Next Door

#20

Post by bruceb » Wed, May 21, 2014, 7:34 AM UTC

DeadHitchhiker wrote: post #11

bruceb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? I also think it should be adjustable depending where you are living. Do you live in the area and so plowing some of that money back in to the local economy? If not there should be a reduction. England is reducing some benefits for those who live abroad and thus not spending money in the country.

> Should you get paid near $80k a year for the next 26 years when you are not working? Yes. Why not? Because that offends your sensibilities about work? Because you feel that people should work until they're 65~70 to retire, if they ever manage to? Right now a number of school teachers are working until their late 60s to make a pittance upon retirement, trading down from houses to mobile homes to even make their reti…

Clearly I suggested they be banished to the poor houses so that the ghosts of rich monocle wearing robbery barons could fling quarters at them and watch the teachers scramble.