Live data from Hacker News

Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

kirkwylie.blogspot.com

11–20 of 47 posts

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#11

I totally agree that dress codes are sort of silly but it's hard to turn down a job if you need one. I have a family that I need to look after and I can't really afford to put my preferences ahead of them having a nice place to live in and eating. I might turn down the offer if the economy was better but if I had to get a job and a financial services company offered me a job and I felt like my options were limited I'…

I'd say it's more of a comfort thing than a cultural thing, like the same reason I don't wear a suit to bed, but I agree it's not worth sacrificing financial stability. Incidentally, the last financial services company I worked at was pretty casual about their "business casual" dress code. As long as you weren't in a client-facing position you could pretty much wear what you wanted.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#12
Oh come on, programmers aren't special. (I know, I am one). Clothes are communication. You dress to a minimal standard to show respect for others, and to communicate "seriousness". Sometimes, you have to spell the standard out out. I have worked with people who wear torn or worn out t-shirts and similarly worn out shorts. It turns off some potential employees and customers who catch a glimpse of them - fair or not.

Sure, it's a little silly to insist on suits for someone crawling on the floor (I still remember in incident with a skirt, an awkward cable, and a customer tour coming in at the wrong moment). But if you work in an industry where it's the standard, how hard is it to leave a jacket and tie at work in case of meetings? Really...

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#13

It's important to note that even jobs without dress codes usually wind up having some sort of unofficial dress code. I personally would love to show up to work every day in a suit, but I can't really do that because my boss and all my coworkers are showing up in t-shirts (I work in academia). Incidentally, the temptation of being able to wear a suit every day is one of the things that nearly drove me from physics int…

Yeah, we shouldn't forget that a well-fitting suit can look really sharp. It can be a status marker (or status illusion), its default tailoring makes you look taller and thinner, the jacket provides convenient extra pockets (this is important to me), and if it has good materials it can be as comfortable as anything.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#14
Interesting take on this from Hamming's essay "You and Your Research" (http://paulgraham.com/hamming.html):

Another personality defect is ego assertion and I'll speak in this case of my own experience. I came from Los Alamos and in the early days I was using a machine in New York at 590 Madison Avenue where we merely rented time. I was still dressing in western clothes, big slash pockets, a bolo and all those things. I vaguely noticed that I was not getting as good service as other people. So I set out to measure. You came in and you waited for your turn; I felt I was not getting a fair deal. I said to myself, ``Why? No Vice President at IBM said, `Give Hamming a bad time'. It is the secretaries at the bottom who are doing this. When a slot appears, they'll rush to find someone to slip in, but they go out and find somebody else. Now, why? I haven't mistreated them.'' Answer, I wasn't dressing the way they felt somebody in that situation should. It came down to just that - I wasn't dressing properly. I had to make the decision - was I going to assert my ego and dress the way I wanted to and have it steadily drain my effort from my professional life, or was I going to appear to conform better? I decided I would make an effort to appear to conform properly. The moment I did, I got much better service. And now, as an old colorful character, I get better service than other people.

You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about. An enormous number of scientists feel they must assert their ego and do their thing their way. They have got to be able to do this, that, or the other thing, and they pay a steady price.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#15
Takeaways from this article:

* (assumption that primary job of corporate software developer is to develop software)

* Programmers are not soldiers, so military attitudes to management don't apply

* Big Bank management of software developers is poor

* Dress code correlates with command/control type management structure, which is undesirable, so dress code is therefore an indicator of an undesirable job.

* Due to this correlation, you should never accept a job with a dress code.

I don't like these types of op-ed pieces and yet I still read them. Something's wrong with me.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power. In a company where the programmers are not making the product, I wouldn't want to go to a meeting with the guy giving the specs underdressed. It marginalizes you even more. The guys in the suits view the programmers as support, them showing up in professional attire and you dressed like their 16 year old son won't help the matter. I would say slacks and a button down shit, with no tie is fine. I think wearing…

If you work in an environment that views programmers purely as a cost of business, and doesn't value their input, you've found a bad environment. The best firms that make massive use of software view their programmers as a key member of the team, because they know that they can't do their jobs without them. And some would argue that getting respect DESPITE your attire is the bigger indicator of power. That being said…

I can't vote you up enough, for that first sentence.

Most likely not representative of places that require a dress code, but an anecdote nonetheless:

My first full-time job after dropping out of college - and moving 600 miles away from friends, family: pretty much every one I knew - was at a small (~100 employee) direct marketing firm building landing pages in a dingy office.

They required slacks and a tie every day except Friday - when The Powers That Be deemed it good for morale to allow us to wear a polo shirt. Everyone was required to follow the code - from the designers building ads to the salespeople cold-calling universities.

It was simple work, and I yearned to be promoted to the actual development group - they got to work in PHP and C++, while I was stuck with plain old HTML, CSS, and a smattering of JavaScript. Until I found out what kind of code was responsible for a majority of the company's revenue. One of their salespeople had apparently picked up a PHP book quite a while ago, and suggested to management that they move away from cardpacks and start generating leads online. He was crafty, and made them sign a document saying the code was owned solely by him. He wrote the software that drove the lead generation platform, and a few months later quit. They hired him back at twice the salary to come in once a week as a consultant to fix bugs.

And bugs a plenty there were. Of course, the three developers in the next pod weren't allowed to touch the Holy Grail of Lead Generation. It was owned by the contractor. There were severe, showstopping bugs cropping up nearly weekly while I was there - bugs that would cause clients to drop us. And that was once I came on board - they'd been using the same PHP file for the previous 7 years or so. And the contractor would always tell us that it was our (the designers) fault for corrupted lead data.

One of the developers in the next pod found a security hole in the server one day, and grabbed a copy of the php file. All 14,000 lines of nested if blocks that it was. Every "bug fix" was simply a switch at the bottom of the file, with one case for each of the accounts that ended up having bugs.

Every time we suggested ways of making the process of getting a campaign out the door faster and more efficient, management would tell us: "OK, if you want it done - come in on the weekend." The CTO couldn't understand what an API was.

I haven't worked at a place that required a tie for any of the employees since then. When it comes to small businesses, at least - from this experience and several of my acquaintances' - if there's a dress code, run very, very far away. It's usually an indicator that you're expected to be a cog in the machine - not a curator of the machine.

(The direct marketing firm was bought out by a competitor about three months after I left, who had even worse lead generation software. It folded six months later).

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#17

Oh come on, programmers aren't special. (I know, I am one). Clothes are communication. You dress to a minimal standard to show respect for others, and to communicate "seriousness". Sometimes, you have to spell the standard out out. I have worked with people who wear torn or worn out t-shirts and similarly worn out shorts. It turns off some potential employees and customers who catch a glimpse of them - fair or not. S…

Well sure, you probably shouldn't wear literally anything you want at work, and torn or worn-out clothes are out of bounds in any semi-formal social situation anyway. So you should at least look as though you put some thought into what you wore to work and how you present yourself. Programmers might not be special, but neither is a suit and tie. A suit is not standard attire for programmers generally, and much like it would be unreasonable to demand a plumber wear one, it is unreasonable in most cases to demand an engineer wear one. Especially so when the rationale is one of those described in the article.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#18

Oh come on, programmers aren't special. (I know, I am one). Clothes are communication. You dress to a minimal standard to show respect for others, and to communicate "seriousness". Sometimes, you have to spell the standard out out. I have worked with people who wear torn or worn out t-shirts and similarly worn out shorts. It turns off some potential employees and customers who catch a glimpse of them - fair or not. S…

What I really don't get is these people who seem to WANT to look like shit. We don't have a dress code here. I could easily wear jeans over half the time. But I don't and nobody else does because it looks horrible. Personally, I find being surrounded by well dressed people a substantial workplace selling point.

Do you have any idea how juvenile and tasteless you look in cheap jeans and sneakers? Do you realize how much dramatically better you look with proper shoes and well cut wool pants? To give up that advantage just indicates idiocy to me.

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#19
I do not think dress codes are "idiotic." I understand why they exist for companies and organisations. I went to an all-boys Catholic school in Sydney, Australia, and we wore navy blazers, ties, and polished shoes. It was about respect and reputation. I get this. I see this everywhere, in every country. I'd rather see well-dressed people than see slobs. I'd rather look at beauty than ugly. I'd rather smell a pleasant scent than an unpleasant odour. Hey, that's just me.

Now, living in the inelegant U.S., I am a programmer who works in companies with no dress codes, but chooses to wear bespoke suits, sport jackets, and the occasional tie and/or hanky in the jacket's breast pocket... because I love clothing, grooming and elegant style. I have always loved these things, ever since I was a kid.

I understand that programming and dressing well is a rare combination, and I get flak for it from the men once in a while, but the women like it. Hmmm... I wonder why. ;-)

Re: Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes

#20

There's no justification for a dress code policy in this day and age if you view the primary function of a software developer to be the development of software. I think dress codes are idiotic in most cases, but I understand them. This author does not. Programmers always want their job to be slinging code in a cave somewhere where people slide a pizza and a list of features under a door and pure beautiful code comes…

I don't think it's about what programmers want, it's more about programmers idealized view of the world. Programmers believe in meritocracies, and judging people based on their clothing is antithetical to a meritocracy.

Many programmers have trouble reconciling the fact that the "real world" doesn't conform to their ideals and actively try to reject it.

Post reply on HN