Live data from Hacker News

Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

cringely.com

121–130 of 392 posts

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#121
> It’s about money and American business, because this is a peculiarly American problem.

Hardly. We've experienced the whole interconnect brinkmanship locally too (South Africa). Its actually quite the opposite - the interconnect things are a lot nastier in other countries because it tends to be paid for (powerful co vs underdog) whilst the bigger US setups seem to run mostly open peering.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you actually are receiving the level of service you're paying for, you just didn't know what you were paying for when you signed up.

In what sense? Are you referring to the "well actually the contract just says you pay for UP TO certain speeds" bullshit?

I'm referring more to the fact that ISPs probably reserve the right to negotiate with peers on their terms in their contracts, not on your terms.

You having a month of 720p instead of 1080p Netflix is worth it to the ISPs instead of raising your service prices by $5 bucks every single month.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#123
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Monopolies are not so difficult to break. You just need to convince the politicians that doing so will get them reelected. And to do that you need to get the public really annoyed. Now how could you possibly do that I wonder

More accurately, you convince them not breaking or adequately regulating the monopoly will force them to spend more time with their families after the next election. In the experience of gun owners, this works rather well after you've actually done enough times, e.g. every bi-annual national election from 1994-2000.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#124

Somebody has to pay the money to upgrade the equipment and bandwidth available at these exchange points. The very reasonable argument in this article is that the ISPs should pay that cost, which seems reasonable given that their customers are demanding it. It sounds like the ISPs are playing a game of chicken, trying to see if their peers like Level3 will throw money in to pay for the ISP to upgrade its equipment and…

The ISPs aren't dropping the packets, Level3 is. From the article linked to in the blog: "A port that is on average utilised at 90 percent will be saturated, dropping packets, for several hours a day. We have congested ports saturated to those levels with 12 of our 51 peers." "We"in the quote is Level3. They're dropping the packets. Why do the ISPs have to pay for Level3's dropping of packets? Shouldn't the ISPs repl…

You should try browsing the Web with a 10% packet loss sometime.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#125

Would be very interesting to see what happened if the big CDN providers just depeered Comcast for 24 hours. Would certainly cost Comcast a fair amount in customer support calls, bad publicity, and properly bring the debate to the general public.

It would also give the CDNs a fair amount in customer support calls, bad publicity, and make their paying customers angry about lost business.

Support calls from whom? CDNs effectively sit behind the Comcast site.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#126
post #47

1. Peering is based on equal traffic both ways. At the moment we tend to download gigabytes with a few bytes of request. As video-communications really takes off (yes chicken and egg - see below) this will get lost in the noise 2. rise of ad-hoc local networks This might come out of mobiles, this might be me dreaming, and it might come with sensible home router designs, but ultimately most of the traffic I care about…

The problem is your point #3 has never been true, though. In each case, in American history (though I don't know about water), the utility was privatized for _years_, became local monopolies, and used that monopolistic advantage to become one of the most major Washington lobbying industries of the time, often to the massive detriment to specific sections of the economy. In each case it was only _after_ an alternative…

interesting. Is there a constant contraction in the time between monopoly and regulation (ie decades for rail, years for electricity?)

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#127

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

Sounds like the situation in the UK which largely works quite well.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#128
post #55

Would be very interesting to see what happened if the big CDN providers just depeered Comcast for 24 hours. Would certainly cost Comcast a fair amount in customer support calls, bad publicity, and properly bring the debate to the general public.

Too risky, no? If Comcast said the problem was not with their network, but with bit CDNs. Customers would shift their rage towards them instead. The whole thing would turn into a PR pissing match

I don't think it would go that way, their customers would more often say, "what's a CDN?"

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#130
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go with customers being mad with who they send a big check to every month (e.g. Comcast). 99% of people only know about their ISP, not their ISP's providers.

Not a big check, but they'd also be frustrated with Netflix/Hulu/Amazon Prime whom they also send money to each month (or year). The average customer wouldn't understand that it's the middleman causing problems, not one of the two endpoints (service provider or content provider).

I guess that depends on the number of participating Tier-1 providers that pull the plug, if enough did it would be very obvious it wasn't Netflix with the issue because everything would grind to a crawl.
Post reply on HN