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Famo.us open to everyone

famo.us

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Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#41
post #28

Nothing seems to work right in touch IE11 on Windows 8.1, not even scrolling on the front page. Not a great showing for what's supposed to be a cross-platform mobile web framework.

FWIW, preserve-3D is not yet supported in IE11, even after the Windows 8.1 update. AFAIK there is no clear ETA on when preserve-3d support will land in Internet Explorer. My best guess would be in IE12. That being said, Famo.us currently works best on mobile devices, which nets you all of the iOS ecosystem and large portions of the Android ecosystem. Is it everyone? No. Is it a big market? Yes. Will it get bigger? Ye…

It might work "best" on mobile devices, but I'm afraid that "best" is still pretty awful. In Chrome on a Moto G the frontpage gets maybe 5fps when scrolling. And not even consistently, but with seemingly random intervals between refreshes. The effect is physically nauseating, a bit like bad VR. On the same phone with Firefox it's even worse. The touch response is just so badly off that I can't even come up with a mental model of what's happening.

I'm sure you guys are proud of launching, and receiving criticism is never fun. But honestly there's no way this thing is usable at all on a midrange Android phone. If you as a company think otherwise, there must be some kind of collective self-delusion going on that you need to work out.

(If instead you had to launch now for some reason, even if you knew that the system isn't really production quality yet on most platforms... Well, too bad. But maybe you could benefit from stating up front on the page the environments where you expect it to work well, before all the launch goodwill is squandered by people not viewing the page on exactly the right platform.)

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#42
post #8

Scroll from the top to the bottom (or vice versa) really hard. Watch the "3d layout engine" flip out thoroughly (tested only on chrome stable on darwin)

Apart from the slow pace at which the page scrolls back, the fact when it's doing so you cannot scroll up anymore (or down when you're at the bottom of the page) annoys me even more.

What Apple did, making scrolling behave like a sheet of paper confirmed using a rubber band, seems more natural than what this "3d layout engine" is doing. Giving it even more thought, it makes sense that even on a non-scrollable page scrolling (giving some form of input) should at least cause a confirmation that it recognised the action you preformed.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#43

First famo.us employee here, want to give people some food for thought to consider as you gripe about things like zoom and and the scrollbar (rightfully so). Some of the more controversial points, especially those regarding accessibility and progressive enhancement, made below are my own. I think I'm the only person at the company that browses the web with JavaScript disabled, so I know how broken the original world…

I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote, and yet, it doesn't matter. You keep sabotaging yourselves.

Does no-one do QA? Do you not have a Steve Jobs-esque character who has taste and an eye for detail and who can look at this stuff the way your users will? Because such a person would've looked at this and Noped the fuck out of there, cancelled whatever PR you had planned, and put everyone around a table saying "we're not there and can we fix it?".

Your first hyped launch thing was a sign-up form with blurry fonts leading no where. Now you've implemented a giant janky scrollbar with easing equations calibrated for "instant turn off". The parallels to Flash really are quite similar.

You should not imitate native behaviour unless you have someone going over it with a fine toothed comb, and you shouldn't be making grand claims about the future when you cock up the present.

If you believe your own claims, then why does your page work terribly on my brand new laptop, never mind the 4 year old one it just replaced?

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#44
post #25

I got a look at this during the "Secret Beta". All in all, cool idea with using the 3d matrix transform, felt very unfinished though. I also felt that the coding style was very verbose with plenty of needless inheritance tricks, etc. They have a huge physics library and a bunch of other stuff that is not necessary for 99% of apps. There was one demo for a basic app, and like 100 demos of various bouncing balls and sp…

As an employee I have mixed feelings here. For a long time (I've been with the company for 2 years), I was the main person at the company arguing for the basics necessary for all apps like you suggest we should have done. However, looking at this from the inside my view has changed to where the approach we're taking probably makes the most sense long term even though it may not be immediately obvious.

First, the goal posts have moved. With iOS7 and Jelly Bean, the expectations of people building apps have become an impossibly high bar for the traditional web. If we had built a simple app framework, then we'd be competing with native apps circa 2009. I think that hyperlinks alone would have helped us win the battle against native apps, but there would always be lots of use cases we wouldn't be able to touch.

Second, focusing on trying to do everything you can do with iOS and Android provided us with much more challenging performance constraints. This extremely high bar has resulted in a design where performance is considered in everything we do. If we didn't squeeze out as much performance as possible, it would leave a much smaller margin for the developers using Famo.us. Looking at everyone who has built stuff with Famo.us, many people have been able to make demos and apps that compete easily with any mobile app built by very senior developers.

Furthermore, there is one major yet unrealized optimization that all the browser makers are aware of that once implemented will completely eliminate 90% of the overhead. Basically, HTML, being XML, inherits XML's poor type system of only strings and children. When interfaces to the DOM were designed they adopted XML's weak type system for the getters and setters. This means that when Famo.us sets a CSS 3D Matrix transform, it needs to take an array of floats, stringify it and then set the style property on a DOM element. Once set, the browser then needs to take this string and parse it back into an array of floats. This marshaling of an array of floats to a string and back again is horrible for performance. This is why Famo.us is currently limited to moving 200-400 surfaces simultaneously on a desktop browser. When this bottleneck is eliminated, everything changes. Famo.us which is relatively fast compared to all techniques out there will become several orders of magnitude faster.

What I don't get is all the hate out there. Yes, we've misstepped in places. Is what we've built thus far perfect? No, not yet. We're competing with operating systems that have years of head start on the web. If we want something that can compete with native, then we need to start building something that is as ambitious in scope with what already exists in native. What other option out there even comes close to giving us a path to combining an experience that is comparable to native (for the average web user, not us neckbeards), supports semantic web content (at the Surface level), has a faster development workflow for iterating on designs and supports the most important feature of the web: hyperlinks?

Lastly, I think the importance of native scrolling and other native-like features are actually overblown. I've been on the web long enough to remember when people used to say that webmail would never compete with desktop mail and that Excel would never compete with something like Google Spreadsheets. Even ExtJS was born out of the need to have a javascript framework that aped the Microsoft Windows look and feel.

What is so special about native scrolling that puts it on a pedestal where it cannot be disrupted? If we define "quality" as "fitness for use", does our scroller yet meet the definition of a quality scroller for the desktop? No, we've got a ways to go. However for mobile devices, I would argue that Famo.us is definitely already there. I encourage everyone to take the demos we have, boot them up on a local server on your machine and view them on your phone or tablet. Those are definitely fit for use now and give you access to a market that is already larger than any native platform and can be opened via a link (many greenfield opportunities not available in native land).

There will come a time where native scroller is going to be shown to be the false god that it is. All you really need is to reach parity with respect to fitness for use and you're at a tipping point where that's no longer a hard and fast requirement. From there, things eventually shift far enough that it's no longer a consideration.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#45
post #43

First famo.us employee here, want to give people some food for thought to consider as you gripe about things like zoom and and the scrollbar (rightfully so). Some of the more controversial points, especially those regarding accessibility and progressive enhancement, made below are my own. I think I'm the only person at the company that browses the web with JavaScript disabled, so I know how broken the original world…

I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote, and yet, it doesn't matter. You keep sabotaging yourselves. Does no-one do QA? Do you not have a Steve Jobs-esque character who has taste and an eye for detail and who can look at this stuff the way your users will? Because such a person would've looked at this and Noped the fuck out of there, cancelled whatever PR you had planned, and put everyone around a table sa…

This comment seems really mean.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#46
post #25

I got a look at this during the "Secret Beta". All in all, cool idea with using the 3d matrix transform, felt very unfinished though. I also felt that the coding style was very verbose with plenty of needless inheritance tricks, etc. They have a huge physics library and a bunch of other stuff that is not necessary for 99% of apps. There was one demo for a basic app, and like 100 demos of various bouncing balls and sp…

As an employee I have mixed feelings here. For a long time (I've been with the company for 2 years), I was the main person at the company arguing for the basics necessary for all apps like you suggest we should have done. However, looking at this from the inside my view has changed to where the approach we're taking probably makes the most sense long term even though it may not be immediately obvious. First, the goal…

> No, we've got a ways to go. However for mobile devices, I would argue that Famo.us is definitely already there.

Looking at it on Chrome in Galaxy Note 3 with KitKat, no, you aren't "already there". Scrolling is painfully erratic.

And if you really want to be "mobile first", which makes sense, it would probably be a good idea to have content which (a) scaled to the width of the device, or (b) failing to scale to device width, at least provided horizontal scrolling. As it is, even in landscape your "Famo.us University" content extends beyond both sides of the viewport.

> There will come a time where native scroller is going to be shown to be the false god that it is.

Sure, someone may one day build something that makes not using the native scroller sensible. But Famo.us hasn't, as yet, done that.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employee I have mixed feelings here. For a long time (I've been with the company for 2 years), I was the main person at the company arguing for the basics necessary for all apps like you suggest we should have done. However, looking at this from the inside my view has changed to where the approach we're taking probably makes the most sense long term even though it may not be immediately obvious. First, the goal…

> No, we've got a ways to go. However for mobile devices, I would argue that Famo.us is definitely already there. Looking at it on Chrome in Galaxy Note 3 with KitKat, no, you aren't "already there". Scrolling is painfully erratic. And if you really want to be "mobile first", which makes sense, it would probably be a good idea to have content which (a) scaled to the width of the device, or (b) failing to scale to dev…

FWIW, KitKat isn't on the list of versions we support. We target Ice Cream Sandwich and above. Also, are you using the stock Android browser or did you install Chrome?

The problem isn't with that device isn't Famo.us, and IIRC it's not the hardware either, it's the implementation of the APIs we rely on in the browser.

Many people replace their mobile phones every 1-3 years. Now that smartphones are becoming feature phones and all these phones have the most recent versions of Android, it's only a matter of time.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#49
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because using a web framework that only works on mobile is not truly platform agnostic. It may be platform agnostic in that it works on multiple different mobile platforms, but a mobile first web framework is not truly platform agnostic as it doesn't work for the desktop web.

So it's more agnostic for mobile development than the native mobile development you're clamoring for? Also it's really not a big step for them to polish the desktop experience. They just released 0.2.0, give it time and I really do think that it's going to be a great platform for both mobile and desktop.

It's more agnostic than true native development but less agnostic than a lot of other frameworks out there.

And I agree that it is an early release and that they have room to improve on the desktop experience. I was just commentating on the current state of things.

All other things aside I think it looks like a cool framework with lots of potential.

Re: Famo.us open to everyone

#50
post #43

First famo.us employee here, want to give people some food for thought to consider as you gripe about things like zoom and and the scrollbar (rightfully so). Some of the more controversial points, especially those regarding accessibility and progressive enhancement, made below are my own. I think I'm the only person at the company that browses the web with JavaScript disabled, so I know how broken the original world…

I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote, and yet, it doesn't matter. You keep sabotaging yourselves. Does no-one do QA? Do you not have a Steve Jobs-esque character who has taste and an eye for detail and who can look at this stuff the way your users will? Because such a person would've looked at this and Noped the fuck out of there, cancelled whatever PR you had planned, and put everyone around a table sa…

What's the lesser of two evils?

1) Launch an imperfect product that works well for some use cases; or 2) Perfect everything and be ridiculed as vaporware

I wish we were Apple and had $159 billion in cash reserves. We're not though and have to operate within different constraints that don't afford us the same luxuries. You can't really compare Apples to Famo.uses

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