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Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

protonmail.ch

11–20 of 71 posts

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#11
post #9

This is a browser addon, right? Is everything loaded locally? If no, what prevents you from putting up some javascript that transfers the decryption password (or the plain text) to you. Sorry, didn't bother to download and look for the source code, to find out how the inner mechanics work. The website doesn't give much information either.

No, it doesn't appear to be. They're at pains to say "nothing is installed", and when I created an account, it loaded "openpgp.min.js" from the server.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, selling out American millionaires is one thing, I have a feeling the Swiss would be less willing to sell out private communications to the NSA.

Because...

Because they've already sold them out to USG? (Crypto AG)? Or possibly, because someone else is a higher bidder?

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#13
post #7

This appears to be a PHP wrapper around OpenPGP.js. If the encryption comes from Javascript loaded by browsers from the servers every time they visit the site, the encryption isn't "end to end". It's controlled by the server and can be broken by the server. Also: the RSA Security logo isn't the logo of the RSA algorithm; it's the logo of the company that sells RSA tokens.

The JS doesn't appear to be compressed so it's possible to view source and see what exactly it's doing. So if it was actually backdoored, somebody will actually find out.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#14
post #7

This appears to be a PHP wrapper around OpenPGP.js. If the encryption comes from Javascript loaded by browsers from the servers every time they visit the site, the encryption isn't "end to end". It's controlled by the server and can be broken by the server. Also: the RSA Security logo isn't the logo of the RSA algorithm; it's the logo of the company that sells RSA tokens.

The JS doesn't appear to be compressed so it's possible to view source and see what exactly it's doing. So if it was actually backdoored, somebody will actually find out.

You can serve different JS to "special" users once. If you're smart, you run checks "for the security of the browser environment" first to make sure it's something unlikely to contain debugging capabilities, e.g. an unmodified iOS device.

The site even helpfully asks you to identify yourself with ANOTHER username and passphrase first, making it even safer for the attacker.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#15
post #7

This appears to be a PHP wrapper around OpenPGP.js. If the encryption comes from Javascript loaded by browsers from the servers every time they visit the site, the encryption isn't "end to end". It's controlled by the server and can be broken by the server. Also: the RSA Security logo isn't the logo of the RSA algorithm; it's the logo of the company that sells RSA tokens.

The JS doesn't appear to be compressed so it's possible to view source and see what exactly it's doing. So if it was actually backdoored, somebody will actually find out.

You can't just review "openpgp.min.js". You have to review every single Javascript input and every single DOM node, and any of them can alter the behavior of any other element of the Javascript runtime in subtle ways to subvert cryptography.

And you have to do this every time you load any page on the site, and any time any of those pages asynchronously load any content.

So, no, contrary to popular belief, this doesn't work.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#16
Encryption to keys that are not properly authenticated is more unsafe than no encryption at all.

This holds up "No private / public key management." as a feature. Without key management (specifically, secure generation, storage, and authentication) encryption is worse than useless.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#17
Anyone that values their privacy should never trust a service like this. The idea of in-browser encryption and decryption is nothing new, and it always suffers from the fact that the server can replace the client side software at any time without warning. If you must use a browser, find a plugin that you trust that works with any webmail service. Better yet, use an actual mail client and encrypt/decrypt in that.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#18
post #3

Funny, when I hear "Switzerland" I think about how just this morning I heard that the American IRS has finally broken the long standing tradition of Swiss banking privacy, and that CreditSuisse will be paying billions of dollars in fines.

Only for US citizens, and this is on a per-bank basis - if you're a US citizen (or pay taxes in the US) you might be rejected in some of the banks.

Re: Show HN: End-to-end encrypted email, based in Switzerland

#20
post #7

This appears to be a PHP wrapper around OpenPGP.js. If the encryption comes from Javascript loaded by browsers from the servers every time they visit the site, the encryption isn't "end to end". It's controlled by the server and can be broken by the server. Also: the RSA Security logo isn't the logo of the RSA algorithm; it's the logo of the company that sells RSA tokens.

I knew this is the first thing I would read. We are becoming pretty predictable.

I tire of hearing this repetitively, every time somebody attempts to take this path, but I recognize you are doing it for anybody that is new and didn't hear the other warnings.

Isn't the perfect the enemy of the good?

Can we recognize that this is a good first step, and definitely constitutes a huge improvement over gmail/yahoo type webmail solutions?

You can still quickly add a disclaimer that you hope they quickly begin the large task of development of native windows/mac/linux/ios/android apps that will remove the javascript concern.

If you spit on everything that is not perfect, you may be steering people away from taking any action to protect their privacy.

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