Can some one explain to me why having, say, an HTML 5 based video player with DRM would be worse than one implemented in a closed platform like Silverlight or Flash? I'm genuinely curious, and not trying to make an argument here.
It would be worse because HTML is supposed to be a hypertext standard, not a DRM standard. We shouldn't be putting closed things in "open" standards.
Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
361–370 of 374 posts
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you for real? Mozilla gets $300 million per year from Google to maintain the pretense of freedom. Meanwhile I have to pay my own bills and deliver projects that my clients will pay for. To bring money into this argument and somehow blame "the users" for this string of epic mess ups is fucking rich. Was I supposed to not diagnose jank using Chrome's frame analysis tools? Not profile memory allocations in its timel…
First thought: wow, you have a hostile attitude, contrary to the site guidelines. Second thought: if you're happy using Apple products because the WiFi works better and you don't care about freedom, then where's your stake in this thread? AFAICT, you don't care (much) about DRM, so ep103's exhortation for people to be consistent is not criticizing you. You, AFAICT, are ethically consistent; you suckle the teat of con…
I've seen up close and personal how Mozilla spends its oodles of cash, I've spoken to folks from all the browser vendors at conferences. The only thing different about Mozilla is the sanctimonious attitude and the utter shock when you dare suggest their actions do not necessarily match words. Everyone else already knows how the game is being played.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
All video will now have DRM. We have lost video that did not have DRM. It will now be almost as easy to implement video with DRM in production as it is to implement HTML5 video without DRM. Every provider will now use DRM. Netflix will use fancy DRM, which mostly works. Everyone else will pay $19.95 for theirs. Never thought we were going to bring back the age of Realplayer (and the million others.)
If you aren't already using DRM , why start now?
pointy haired bosses.
Before this change, being DRM free was at least somewhat pragmatic. Now it's only principles and consumer rights, and we live in a capitalist society, who the fuck cares about those?
This is a terrible development.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you aren't already using DRM , why start now?
transitions easy. pointy haired bosses. Before this change, being DRM free was at least somewhat pragmatic. Now it's only principles and consumer rights, and we live in a capitalist society, who the fuck cares about those? This is a terrible development.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
If Mozilla only fights 1 of 4 of the 'important' battles, that's still better than fighting 0 'important' battles.
If Mozilla only fought one of every four important battles, I would seriously have to reassess my opinion of Mozilla.
I was making the point that 1 of 4 is still useful. Obviously it is less useful than fighting 4 of 4 or 3 of 4.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
The social network example is extremely poor. In the case of a social network, Facebook has no means to prevent its users from using other social networks. The value proposition of a social network is in its users, and any network that can attract users can attract other users on that basis. There is no exclusive relationship between the content (users) and content providers (facebook et. al.). In the case of televis…
> There is no exclusive relationship between the content (users) and content providers (facebook et. al.). Really? You can export all your Facebook data and switch to another social network that will import it all? Please tell us all how you do this. You're ignoring the huge effect of lock-in for a site like Facebook: they have all your data, and there's no way for you to get it back in a non-proprietary format. Func…
You still exist as an independent entity. There's no data you have on facebook that you can't possibly do without. And you almost certainly concurrently exist on several social networks.
I'm not really sure how you can try to argue that this is a similar kind of 'lock-in' to the fact that there is only one distributor for any piece of content and they control that distribution online pretty much right to my TV. Social networks are nothing like that.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There is no exclusive relationship between the content (users) and content providers (facebook et. al.). Really? You can export all your Facebook data and switch to another social network that will import it all? Please tell us all how you do this. You're ignoring the huge effect of lock-in for a site like Facebook: they have all your data, and there's no way for you to get it back in a non-proprietary format. Func…
I once worked for a social network (dominant demographically and regionally) that was destroyed in a matter of a few months by Facebook coming into the open market. I have a pretty intimate knowledge of how weak these bonds can be. It took a catalyzing event (a major change the users didn't like) to make them truly gone , but in the end they slowly left their (often very creative and interesting) data behind and move…
There's also no "content" (movies, music, etc.) that you can't possibly do without. (I, personally, do do without, in the case of both Facebook and movies, music, etc. with DRM.) Just as you can pick a different social network provider if you don't like Facebook (or, in the extreme, give up social networks altogether if none of them will give you what you want, as I do), you can pick a different content provider if you don't like the ones that try to control distribution (or, in the extreme, give up online "content" altogether if no providers will give you what you want, as I do).
But if you want to interact with particular people online, and they're all on Facebook, you have to use Facebook, just as if you want to watch a particular movie, and it's only available from one provider, you have to use that provider. And in both cases, the incumbent can make it very, very difficult to switch if they control enough of the market. (In the social network case you describe, you say the original provider was "dominant demographically and regionally", but that basically translates to "not as dominant as Facebook". Did people really switch because Facebook gave a better experience, or because it connected them to a larger network?) The lock-in dynamics work the same either way.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
I once worked for a social network (dominant demographically and regionally) that was destroyed in a matter of a few months by Facebook coming into the open market. I have a pretty intimate knowledge of how weak these bonds can be. It took a catalyzing event (a major change the users didn't like) to make them truly gone , but in the end they slowly left their (often very creative and interesting) data behind and move…
> There's no data you have on facebook that you can't possibly do without. There's also no "content" (movies, music, etc.) that you can't possibly do without. (I, personally, do do without, in the case of both Facebook and movies, music, etc. with DRM.) Just as you can pick a different social network provider if you don't like Facebook (or, in the extreme, give up social networks altogether if none of them will give…
But you started this conversation talking about the data facebook holds that locks you in. Relationship data is trivially rebuildable (and often benefits from periodic culling anyways), so that leaves the more concrete data like pictures and posts. Those are important, but most people seem to treat them pretty much as ephemeral in practice.
So at this point I don't really know what you're arguing or why you're arguing with me. Yes, the people are the important thing in a social network. Where they go you go. If your friends all go somewhere else, you will follow them. Where this differs from films or television is that, unlike films and televisions, your friends can two-time another network that offers a different value proposition until the network effects catch up. I've seen this happen personally, and that was my original point.
And just to clarify on this:
> ou say the original provider was "dominant demographically and regionally", but that basically translates to "not as dominant as Facebook"
When I talk about facebook coming on to the open market, I mean literally in the 6 months or so after people who didn't go to an accredited university could use it. At the beginning of that we were, within that region, absolutely more dominant than facebook (obviously). We were much more dominant than myspace (less obvious, and we were very proud of it) even. We were the #1 social network in that region hands down.
At the end of that 6 month period the network effect had completely shifted to them and people were visiting our site once a month who previously visited several times a day. When we changed things up, they just stopped coming rather than bother learning how to use the new stuff.
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There's no data you have on facebook that you can't possibly do without. There's also no "content" (movies, music, etc.) that you can't possibly do without. (I, personally, do do without, in the case of both Facebook and movies, music, etc. with DRM.) Just as you can pick a different social network provider if you don't like Facebook (or, in the extreme, give up social networks altogether if none of them will give…
I don't think you're actually arguing with any points I'm making. I agree with everything in your second paragraph. But you started this conversation talking about the data facebook holds that locks you in. Relationship data is trivially rebuildable (and often benefits from periodic culling anyways), so that leaves the more concrete data like pictures and posts. Those are important, but most people seem to treat them…
Yes, in response to you saying that the analogy with social networks was weak. I was pointing out that, while the specific mechanism of lock-in may differ, the underlying logic appears to me to be the same in both cases.
> Relationship data is trivially rebuildable (and often benefits from periodic culling anyways)
I think this depends on the person.
> that leaves the more concrete data like pictures and posts. Those are important, but most people seem to treat them pretty much as ephemeral in practice.
Do they? Or do they just, without thinking about it, assume that the content will always be there on Facebook (or wherever), so they don't have to worry about managing it themselves, backing it up, etc.? My money is on the latter.
This, btw, is another way in which the analogy between movies, music, etc. and social networks is a good one: in both cases, people seek short-term satisfaction without stopping to think of the longer-term effects of their actions, on both them and society. The result is that people end up locked into a walled garden that gets more and more difficult to escape without giving up the activity altogether.
> Where this differs from films or television is that, unlike films and televisions, your friends can two-time another network that offers a different value proposition until the network effects catch up.
But that means they haven't really switched networks; they're just using two instead of one. Similarly, people can get content from more than one provider.
> At the end of that 6 month period the network effect had completely shifted to them
Why was that? That's the key question I was asking. Was it because FB actually delivered a better user experience, or just because FB gave them access to a larger network?
Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but does not pay taxes? What makes you think Mozilla does not pay taxes? It most certainly pays taxes. I'll save you the web searching: https://static.mozilla.com/moco/en-US/pdf/Mozilla_Audited_Fi... is the latest set of financials that are public; see pages 4 and 5. For 2012, the Mozilla Corporation had $311 million in revenue, $208.5 million in expenses, and paid $37.6 million in income taxes. The federal corpora…
"What makes you think Mozilla does not pay taxes?" Corporate structure. (Mozilla Corp. is wholly owned subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation. Only Mozilla Corporation pays taxes.) 2008 IRS audit. 2012 settlement with IRS. Perhaps a better statement would have been that Mozilla tries to avoid paying taxes. Anyway, if what you say is true regarding compilation and exclusion of the DRM code then I'm not sure what everyone in…
That flies in the face of what I'm seeing in the Mozilla Corporation financial statements.
> Now, how easy is it to compile Firefox these days?
It depends on which OS you're doing it on, but there are pretty detailed step by step instructions at https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Simple_Firefox_buil... and the things it links to. The biggest hassle is making sure that the various prerequisites (a compiler, some development libraries, autoconf 2.13, etc) are installed. On most modern Linux distros or Mac this is not a big deal. On Windows it's a slight bit more annoying.