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2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

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Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#71
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly has its detriments, but my point still stands: if you go into Algebra I without knowing your math tables, you're going to hit a brick wall. "Motivation" at a higher sense is something that's sorely lacking in US public school (free government school) math. Especially prior to real algebra, the teachers tend to be generalists who don't know to tell you "you need to learn X so you can learn Y which will al…

Actually, I think that for most students they hit a wall in Algebra regardless of how they learned basic mathematical operations. This wall has to do with abstraction of principles not with mechanical operation speed. If what we are trying to teach is this abstraction, then the rote table method is arbitrary* and a time sync. The students will still learn basic sums over time, it just won't be the focus of the practi…

I have 0x65 problems and knowing 12*11 from memory doesn't solve any of them.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#72
post #66

Why are we worried that elementary school children might misunderstand arithmetic? This is the problem with the Common Core math standards, that they think you need to have a perfect understanding of something before you can move on, and if you have moved on then you have a perfect understanding of everything that came before it. That's just not how math works at any level! Understanding counting and arithmetic and n…

To take this further, isn't one of the most consequential bits of math done in recent times Gödel's (in)famous incompleteness theorems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_...), which are based on the natural numbers?

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#73
post #66

Why are we worried that elementary school children might misunderstand arithmetic? This is the problem with the Common Core math standards, that they think you need to have a perfect understanding of something before you can move on, and if you have moved on then you have a perfect understanding of everything that came before it. That's just not how math works at any level! Understanding counting and arithmetic and n…

My favorite example is this one, in which a man tries to teach the binary number system to third graders http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html

The point is he focuses on challenging their understanding of numbers vs representations of numbers, despite the fact that they thought they mastered simple counting in first grade. They come away from this not with a mastery of binary arithmetic but with a better understanding of their usual decimal counting system.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#74
post #72
post #66

Why are we worried that elementary school children might misunderstand arithmetic? This is the problem with the Common Core math standards, that they think you need to have a perfect understanding of something before you can move on, and if you have moved on then you have a perfect understanding of everything that came before it. That's just not how math works at any level! Understanding counting and arithmetic and n…

To take this further, isn't one of the most consequential bits of math done in recent times Gödel's (in)famous incompleteness theorems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_... ), which are based on the natural numbers?

Not to mention the myriad of open problems in number theory, and the fact that "combinatorics" (the mathematics of counting) is a huge field all by itself.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#75
post #17

I'd never heard of this before, but looking up some of the controversy, I found this article: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/03/07/abou... It actually makes some sense. I'm still skeptical, but it's sounding like it's just a significant departure from the rote memorization methods I grew up with.

If you don't learn your math tables by rote memorization, how are you ever going to be adept at algebra or anything based on it? If you can't just look at something like 2x = 4y and instantly simply it....

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/5-year-...

You don't need arithmetic to learn pattern recognition.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#76

As a parent with a a first grader and child in kindergarten, my observations of the Common Core isn't that the basis, or theory, is unsound, it's more that the teachers were not given adequate training on it.

Absolutely. I'm sure the companies behind Common Core are licking their chops to provide that training for everyone.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#77
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bah... I can tell you why the [...] You are not a six year old child learning arithmatic. You have missed the point. > The problem with that method is that if I ask students to explain why it works, they’d have a really hard time explaining it to me. They might be able to do the computation, but they don’t get the math behind it. For some people, that’s fine. For math teachers, that’s a problem because it means a l…

We're saying the same thing. I understand that children need to understand the underlying concepts. I'm saying there are already well established methods for teaching those. Waving a hand and saying the "old way" is simply an algorithm and a poor method because it glosses over the details is like saying teaching someone how to use a calculator will make them forget how math works. That common core method for subtract…

There is also pretty good evidence that the old methods did not promote understanding.

> That common core method for subtracting 12 from 32 definitely doesn't teach you anything about how or why it works.

You do not understand what it is trying to teach. It is teaching children that taking one number from another can be done using columns, but it can also be done in your head by breaking big numbers down into small numbers and counting up.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#78
post #73
post #66

Why are we worried that elementary school children might misunderstand arithmetic? This is the problem with the Common Core math standards, that they think you need to have a perfect understanding of something before you can move on, and if you have moved on then you have a perfect understanding of everything that came before it. That's just not how math works at any level! Understanding counting and arithmetic and n…

My favorite example is this one, in which a man tries to teach the binary number system to third graders http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html The point is he focuses on challenging their understanding of numbers vs representations of numbers, despite the fact that they thought they mastered simple counting in first grade. They come away from this not with a mastery of binary arithmetic but with a better understandin…

I'm now remembering even more of the New Math that was remaining in my elementary school education (1966-72): I always remember set theory in 3rd grade (not particularly motivated as I remember, but very neat, a useful way to help describe the world), 4th grade as I recall is where non-decimal bases were introduced. And of course it had that obvious effect (at least for me).

This was in Joplin, MO, one of the reddest Red State parts of the country, albeit in a school district famous after the 1955 publication of Why Johnny Can't Read for still being able to teach its students how to read. But the language arts were always very capably taught in the district, generally better than math.

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#79
I suffered through this sort of math with my kids. I'm afraid that this may end up being flamebait, but here goes...

These reformed Math programs are a tremendous mess being foisted on us by "Education" professionals and academics. Instead of teaching one, well-tested method of performing operations (addition, subtraction, etd.), these programs present a number of alternative "algorithms". In Everyday Math (the program my own kids were taught), the standard methods for multiplication and division were not taught and years of drill using alternative (and inferior) methods were used. This leads to tentative confusion over the way to solve problems. Proficiency with basic multiplication and so forth is downplayed and instead proficiency with calculators is developed.

The Education majors (teachers and professors of Education) aren't STEM people themselves. I remember how we, the parents, were lectured (during the parent introduction to these programs) on mathematics and how, we were informed, "there is more than one way to get to an answer" as if this was some astonishing revealed truth. How there was (are you ready for this?) more than one way to do multiplication. Then the teachers would illustrate some method (for example, the Lattice method of paper and pencil multiplication) and with wide and astonished eyes exclaim, "see it gives the SAME result". Now, for those that don't know the Lattice method, its just a method of doing multi-digit multiplication that keeps the intermediate products, which will eventually be summed, in a grid.

Many years ago I was taught the standard methods for computing the basic operations because after centuries of use they have become the prefered methods by people that have to work with numbers. That's why adults haven't bothered to learn the Russian Peasant method or the Egyptian method or whatever. So while our kids will struggle with some new text book, fat and full of colorful pictures that will have pictures of ancient pyramids, the kids in Singapore will by using thin, little black and white books full of exercises, written in English. And then, the kids in Singapore will go on to absolutely kick our asses in mathematics. I've used these Singapore math books, somewhere around the summer after third grade, to reteach my own daughter mathematics. A couple of days ago, she just took the Calculus AP exam after her Junior year in high school, no thanks to Everyday Math.

Not everything about Everyday Math nor Common Core is bad, but some of it is really bad.

It's argued by the people putting these programs in place that they know better and that their programs are supported by research. Have you looked at this supposed research? It's not good. Few well controlled studies done by people in Education departments[1].

The first (so called) research paper listed on the Everyday Math program web site uses Knuth Vol. 3 as justification for studying so many algorithms. It completely misses the point of Vol. 3. It's a book about sorting and searching algorithms. Almost every one of them has some reason for it's use: easy code, fast average performance, fast worst case, works well with a limited number of tape drives (wow!), and so on. This has nothing to do with the desirability of teaching inferior methods of basic calculation to our kids. This paper, which is used to justify some of the core principles of the Everyday Math program is an example of the poor foundation for these reforms to math education in the US.

[1] How Brainy Is Your Major: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finding-the-next-einstei...

[2] Algorithms in Everyday Math http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/about/research-results/algo...

Re: 2+2=What? Parents rail against Common Core math

#80
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be steep at first, but almost every problems involve breaking them into manageable chunks, let's hope it pays on the long run.

These are peoples' lives they are affecting. "Hope" and "politics" shouldn't be a part of the decision making process.

They could have at least pretended to do some experiments, maybe even with proper controls (yes, that's a radical concept in education "research", e.g. how phonics were tossed in the middle of the last century, resulting in a massive decline in literacy), that showed the Common Core was good before imposing it on the entire nation.
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