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Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

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Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#31
post #22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done…

>>I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I don't completely agree with that. People who achieve amazing things working even 16 hours a day are pretty common. I have done that many times in the past. When I did my engineering here in India. Preparing for public exams, and entrance exams- I have regularly worked on sub…

> I don't completely agree with that. People who achieve amazing things working even 16 hours a day are pretty common. I have done that many times in the past. When I did my engineering here in India. Preparing for public exams, and entrance exams- I have regularly worked on subjects like Math and Physics almost 15-17 hours a day. Most of friends who cracked the exams did the same. It happens all the time.

I disagree. I spent part of my high school in India and I have worked on Indian engineering entrance exams. They did involve extensive amount of working through problems. There was more memorizing rather than abstract problem solving. I am not convinced the amount of clear headed thinking that was needed to perform practice drills on problem sets is the same as I need when I need to design something new or write theoretical proofs.

Not that you can't go rage hard and convince yourself you can pull an all-nighter or whatever. I have only found that at the end of the day there are two results:

a) The stuff that you make is not up to spec.

b) You are tired the next day and your productivity is fucked.

I prefer the long race.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#32

One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time. If I can get in the zone and ach…

> If I can get in the zone and achieve peak productivity for 8 hours that is an extremely successful day.

The reason going to office takes more than 8 hours of productive work is because in an office environment, there is other stuff to do. Go to lunch with co-workers, attend meetings, help someone on something minor. These are things that take some percentage of your time and that adds up. For example, a few weeks back I was working from Austin. I was insanely productive because I could spend long stretches of time quietly thinking and producing.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#33
I have found to stay maximally productive and creative I have to switch it up.

If I just get in a routine it seems like things flag. The best thing for me is to laze off and sleep for 10 hours a day... casually poke around at some stuff for awhile. Then, have a burst of output and sleep 5 hours for a couple/few nights while spending the remainder in a flurry of concentrated activity. Then, back to a regular normal routine for a stretch. If I try any one of these for long it seems my productivity and interest flag though.

I don't know if it's just me or if we evolved to have periods of rest and stress.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#34

I once worked with a guy who only ever slept about 4 hours a night for years. He would then run a full marathon into work every morning. I can tell you right now, his body was there but his ability to do anything other than make small tactical decisions was destroyed. Having a strategic meeting about the direction of the company was pointless, as you could nearly see has brain unable to compute and think at that leve…

Upvoted for being so sad. ;(

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#35
post #26

Over the years I've found that I definitely need 8 hours sleep but didn't often get it. I would normally manage about 6-7 hours and would soon build up a deficit. This had a definite impact on my well being and performance at work. Recently I've started using a timer instead of an alarm clock to ensure that I always get eight hours. If I go to bed later I get up later. On the rare occasions that I go to bed substanti…

The whole deficit thing is interesting. I've felt that I do that too, but I've also heard people say that sleep doesn't work that way. It definitely could just be that any time I'm sleeping more than 8 hours I'm just being lazy.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#36
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done…

My impression is that people who spend 10+ hour day in work tend to spend a lot of time socializing, on facebook or otherwise wasting. The problem often is that their needs to socialize and relax are not lower. Without realizing it, they started to use time spend in work to fulfill those needs. It slows down everybody, but looks good to management.

Or, they have a lot of meetings and only work for 2-3 hours.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#37

There's an easy counter example: weightlifting. By taking Edison's example as a maxim he'd have all people interested in weightlifting spend day and night at the gym and hardly resting. I suppose he'd recommend you take 2-3 minute catnaps between sets to recover.

I think it would be more Edison would have you work to your output in the gym, and then move onto doing independent research on weightlifting during recovery times.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#38

One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time. If I can get in the zone and ach…

About 1-3% of the population needs 5 hours or less of sleep: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870371250....

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#39
post #22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done…

>>I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I don't completely agree with that. People who achieve amazing things working even 16 hours a day are pretty common. I have done that many times in the past. When I did my engineering here in India. Preparing for public exams, and entrance exams- I have regularly worked on sub…

>When I did my engineering here in India. Preparing for public exams, and entrance exams- I have regularly worked on subjects like Math and Physics almost 15-17 hours a day.

And did you cut this down to (even) 10 hours and observe real changes in productivity?

>Most of it psychological.

No. You get physical symptoms from sleep depredation. You can't think these problems away but you can convince yourself you aren't having them. Doesn't actually change your body's need for sleep.

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/excessive-sleepiness-10...?

From the article:

Sleep Loss Impairs Judgment, Especially About Sleep

Lack of sleep can affect our interpretation of events. This hurts our ability to make sound judgments because we may not assess situations accurately and act on them wisely.

Sleep-deprived people seem to be especially prone to poor judgment when it comes to assessing what lack of sleep is doing to them. In our increasingly fast-paced world, functioning on less sleep has become a kind of badge of honor. But sleep specialists say if you think you’re doing fine on less sleep, you’re probably wrong. And if you work in a profession where it’s important to be able to judge your level of functioning, this can be a big problem.

“Studies show that over time, people who are getting six hours of sleep, instead of seven or eight, begin to feel that they’ve adapted to that sleep deprivation -- they’ve gotten used to it,” Gehrman says. “But if you look at how they actually do on tests of mental alertness and performance, they continue to go downhill. So there’s a point in sleep deprivation when we lose touch with how impaired we are.”

Sleep plays a critical role in thinking and learning. Lack of sleep hurts these cognitive processes in many ways. First, it impairs attention, alertness, concentration, reasoning, and problem solving. This makes it more difficult to learn efficiently.

Second, during the night, various sleep cycles play a role in “consolidating” memories in the mind. If you don’t get enough sleep, you won’t be able to remember what you learned and experienced during the day.

>You will be surprised how long you can go sleepless, when that is the only option you have

Doesn't mean it's healthy. Doesn't mean that you are performing at max capacity.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#40
post #35
post #26

Over the years I've found that I definitely need 8 hours sleep but didn't often get it. I would normally manage about 6-7 hours and would soon build up a deficit. This had a definite impact on my well being and performance at work. Recently I've started using a timer instead of an alarm clock to ensure that I always get eight hours. If I go to bed later I get up later. On the rare occasions that I go to bed substanti…

The whole deficit thing is interesting. I've felt that I do that too, but I've also heard people say that sleep doesn't work that way. It definitely could just be that any time I'm sleeping more than 8 hours I'm just being lazy.

I don't think it's a zero sum game and I'm pretty sure other factors are involved e.g. stress, alcohol intake, volume of exercise, etc). I do know that my perceived quality of life is improved when I'm getting plenty of sleep, and for me that requires about eight hours.

As I wrote in my initial comment the occasional disturbed night is not a big problem when I'm well rested. Under those circumstances I never feel the need to get extra sleep to compensate for the lost hours.

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