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Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

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Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#301

Post by shkkmo »

Daiz wrote: post #267
shkkmo wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Giving in to HTML DRM will only make the situation worse than it currently is Except if you use the new Firefox you may have better privacy and security than you currently do with flash and silverlight. I haven't seen anybody on here argue for DRM, so I don't see the point in this FUD. Instead, lets find more ways for Firefox to fight DRM and reduce it's negative impact. I particularly support one of Doctorow's sug…

>Except if you use the new Firefox you may have better privacy and security than you currently do with flash and silverlight. "May". We're still changing a closed plugin to an even more closed black box (or actually multiple black boxes), which could be doing god knows when you're not looking (and even when you are looking). And even if Mozilla manages to negotiate some promises of privacy for Firefox users, what abo…

> May". We're still changing a closed plugin to an even more closed black box (or actually multiple black boxes), which could be doing god knows when you're not looking (and even when you are looking).

It's more scary than a black box, it's a black box where it is illegal to discuss any vulernabilities or bugs due to the DMCA. At least this black box will be inside of an opensource sandbox that is publicly auditable and testable.

> And even if Mozilla manages to negotiate some promises of privacy for Firefox users,

Mozilla already has commited to providing privacy protections that are superior to the current DRM implementations.

> what about other browsers - will their users get it just as good when they switch from Flash/Silverlight to some DRM black box?

That depends on how good a job Mozilla does at shaping the marketplace and consumer expectations. It also depends on how good a job we do about educating the public about the risks (security and otherwise)

>but Firefox hopping in surely doesn't help the situation any. Why can't it? Why is that sure?

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#302

Post by Dylan16807 »

res0nat0r wrote: post #300
res0nat0r wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something inherently wrong with content creators controlling how their content is consumed?

I'm slightly confused as to why this perfectly valid question is downvotable....going against the hive mind?

It's not just a question. It's also an implication that the people you're replying to have claimed there is "something inherently wrong with content creators controlling how their content is consumed". Such a loaded question is unfair and downvote-worthy.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#303

Post by shkkmo »

azakai wrote: post #291
magicalist wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mozilla has been different in philosophy. It's the only browser created by a nonprofit, and it fights for open web causes all the time. Just not, you know, this one. I understand why Mozilla is making this choice, but it's still the wrong one. I mean, seriously, DRM in the HTML spec , endorsed by Mozilla. I can't think of a bigger WTF. I'm very much in agreement with Cory Doctorow that all these assertions that Moz…

> I'm very much in agreement with Cory Doctorow that all these assertions that Mozilla will lose all its users if it doesn't implement EME have had no evidence to back them up. The reasoning is actually very sound in my opinion. It is true that EME is not a major force on desktop yet. But, Netflix - the most popular streaming video service - has written an EME player. It is moving towards that, and the hollywood stud…

> People will not use a browser that does not support Netflix.

As a flat out statement, that is false. Some people will use a browser that doesn't support netflix, namely those people that don't subscribe to netflix.

The question becomes HOW MANY People will not use a browser that does not support Netflix.

The point is, there was no data provided to use to answer that question.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#304

Post by wyager »

takluyver wrote: post #233
xxs wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always screen capture the VGA port, DRM will never/ever work.

This is a neat summary of an idea that always turns up on every DRM thread. If the best way to copy a movie is to buy some extra hardware to plug into your VGA port, and then play the movie back at regular speed while you record it, then DRM is working. Joe Bloggs isn't going to do that to give his mates copies of a movie he enjoyed. Of course, someone out there will go through that and put it on the internet. But Jo…

Most piracy isn't about Joe Bloggs giving the video to his friends. It's established institutions uploading videos to popular torrent sites, where they get millions of downloads. There is simply no way to prevent that.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#305

Post by shkkmo »

magicalist wrote: post #282
azakai wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla has been different in philosophy. It's the only browser created by a nonprofit, and it fights for open web causes all the time. I think people that care about that are aware of it. But the facts remain that the vast majority of users don't care about the philosophical differences. When Chrome and Internet Explorer started shipping EME, almost no one switched browser. When Snowden's revelations came out, almos…

> Mozilla has been different in philosophy. It's the only browser created by a nonprofit, and it fights for open web causes all the time. Just not, you know, this one. I understand why Mozilla is making this choice, but it's still the wrong one. I mean, seriously, DRM in the HTML spec , endorsed by Mozilla. I can't think of a bigger WTF. I'm very much in agreement with Cory Doctorow that all these assertions that Moz…

> At the very least doing this now instead of years from now when it might start mattering (like what happened with h.264) does not exactly demonstrate sticking to their guns.

Ah, but the flipside:

Doing this now, as opposed to years from now when the technology is established, gives Mozilla more influence over the form that this DRM takes, the protections that are available to consumers and the marketplace in general.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#306

Post by matart »

spacelizard wrote: post #226
msbarnett wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps the whole existence of Mozilla was leading up to this point where it could commit ritualistic suicide and take this DRM proposal with it. Except, if Mozilla had committed "ritualistic suicide" over EME, it wouldn't have taken EME with it. Users would move to every other browser with HTML5 DRM implemented, Mozilla would die accomplishing nothing. A world with entrenched HTML5 DRM & Mozilla strikes me as stri…

I wouldn't switch to another browser just because Mozilla doesn't implement DRM. In fact that strikes me as completely the wrong reason to switch to another browser. Continuing to use Mozilla and boycotting services that use DRM is a more reasonable approach. The good news is there will likely be an extension and/or custom build of Firefox that removes the DRM. Of course this means we won't be able to watch the DRMed…

The content providers start blocking firefox from accessing their content. It will eventually be easier to use chrome, IE, or whatever instead of using a work around to keep on firefox. It will lose a large portion of its user base and then its funding as it won't bring in as much from default search provider contracts etc

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#307

Post by shkkmo »

magicalist wrote: post #288
StavrosK wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we have platforms A and B, and A is more aligned with your interests than B, then we have an advantage in having everyone on A rather than on B. You're presenting a false dichotomy: "Either Mozilla doesn't compromise anywhere, or they might as well go away". Things aren't black and white.

Sure, but if the only thing to weigh is "will we lose users if we don't implement this feature?" and the only reason given why it's different this time is the assertion that this time it's different, I think you can understand the sentiment. Besides, I think the argument is more "Either Mozilla doesn't compromise where it's important not to , or they might as well go away", which is a true statement. Mozilla does nee…

If Mozilla only fights 1 of 4 of the 'important' battles, that's still better than fighting 0 'important' battles.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#308

Post by azakai »

shkkmo wrote: post #303
azakai wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm very much in agreement with Cory Doctorow that all these assertions that Mozilla will lose all its users if it doesn't implement EME have had no evidence to back them up. The reasoning is actually very sound in my opinion. It is true that EME is not a major force on desktop yet. But, Netflix - the most popular streaming video service - has written an EME player. It is moving towards that, and the hollywood stud…

> People will not use a browser that does not support Netflix. As a flat out statement, that is false. Some people will use a browser that doesn't support netflix, namely those people that don't subscribe to netflix. The question becomes HOW MANY People will not use a browser that does not support Netflix. The point is, there was no data provided to use to answer that question.

Does it matter if it's 30% or 50% or 80%? Ignoring any of those numbers of users is not a viable strategy. People want to watch their Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad or the next high-quality show that comes out, and Hollywood is going to put that show on EME only. That's going to be a lot of people.

We can't predict the specific number but we don't need to - we can very reasonably expect it to be large.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#310

Post by magicalist »

shkkmo wrote: post #307
magicalist wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if the only thing to weigh is "will we lose users if we don't implement this feature?" and the only reason given why it's different this time is the assertion that this time it's different, I think you can understand the sentiment. Besides, I think the argument is more "Either Mozilla doesn't compromise where it's important not to , or they might as well go away", which is a true statement. Mozilla does nee…

If Mozilla only fights 1 of 4 of the 'important' battles, that's still better than fighting 0 'important' battles.

If Mozilla only fought one of every four important battles, I would seriously have to reassess my opinion of Mozilla.
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