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Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

andreasgal.com

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Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#151
This is a sad day for the web, but it was honestly one that was inevitable, and one that we all had a hand in making. If you want to know why we have DRM in the web, step 1 is taking a look in the mirror. Mozilla does not represent a majority market share of browser users, and so their voice in the W3C can be over-ruled by the voices of the other stakeholders, among them 3 enormous corporations with substantial media interests.

What follows is harsh, but I believe it to be true. Feel free to tell me that I am wrong, because I fully admit that I could be letting my emotions speak and I could be wrong.

Back in the day the web was ruled by a monopoly and it sucked. Mozilla released firefox but the web only broke free of microsoft's control because people like us did the work to break that control. I started using firefox, and I helped get most of my family members onto it. And many of my tech savvy friends did the same. Slowly but surely Mozilla's market share grew until it reached the point where Microsoft had to react and start to implement web standards, because if they didn't people weren't going to wait for them. They were going to switch to Firefox. And for a brief time we had the promise of a global network for the distribution of information not controlled by a single large corporation, but worked on by a committee which had a large part of its membership come from a public benefit corporation, whose only interest was empowering people to use that network to enhance their lives.

The web exploded, and fearful of being left behind large corporations got into the game with their own browsers. And rather than learn from what happened last time we let a large corporation get majority user share, we, and by "we" I mean you and I and all of the other people who should know better, went right for it.

Google released a cute cartoon describing the inception of chrome, beginning with hiring away people from Mozilla, talking about all of the great things their browser would provide. Microsoft started up development of IE again, and Apple released Safari. A lot of us looked at Firefox and said "Thanks for helping to save the web as we know it, but Chrome is so much more minimal! Safari as a great look and feel! See ya later". Richard Stallman gets a lot of flack around here for his eccentricity when it comes to computing, but goddammit the man can see past his own nose and understands that taking a dump on the only body advocating for you and I in favor of switching to something on such trivial concerns as "look and feel" is a great way to end up right where we are today. Where Mozilla has been marginalized so much by the relentless rush to Chrome that Google can go ahead and implement a DRM scheme on its proprietary OS and then force that through the Web Standards body with the help of Apple and Microsoft. When Mozilla doesn't have enough market share to stop it, because we've all switched over the Chrome based on Octane benchmark scores, and switched over our parents and friends. Where I routinely run into "desktop" sites that are straight up broken in Firefox and fine in Chrome because people can't bother with anything other than webkit prefixes, and where the mobile web is an even bigger disaster of Chrome/Safari specific junk.

So a few years from now, as you continue to bask in the glow google's super minimal interface and safari's incredible smoothness, as Chrome sends your browsing data back to Google and DRM starts to leak into other areas of the web (want to save that image? Sorry! Want to copy this text? Protected! Don't even think about looking at the source) cast a thought to Mozilla, probably still working away to do the best it can for you. Then ask yourself if selling out the web was worth it for the handful of beads you got from all the interests that wanted to close it down and lock it up, and if all the smoothness and look and feel in the world was worth it for the promise of what the web might have been had we not let it slip through our hands.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#152
post #125

This is terrible news from end to end. To solve it, we need to tackle the root problem and not blame the browsers: those who want to infect our open web with DRM. Cancel your Netflix subscription. Let them know why. Same with Hulu. Same with amazon video. same with anyone who tells you to that your open web is less important than their unwillingness to embrace the new, digital frontier. Don't give money to the asshat…

Start pirating content. Punish them in their pockets. It's all their care about.

So long as you're still consuming it you're still propagating the resulting culture, and encouraging other people to pay for it. Not everyone is in a position where they can so easily choose to flaunt the law.

It's best to support liberally licensed things and other alternatives; then your friends and family can share in them without taking the bigger step of choosing to ignore the law.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#153
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit and greed are not the same thing. Greed means overcharging for no reason besides wanting to overcharge. I.e. ripping users off for the sake of it. Usually it's possible only when competition is weak. Otherwise customers would just walk away to the competitors. In the case of DRM in video, publishers are a tight conglomerate and there is little disruption there. So they enjoy all kind of sick idiocy they can fo…

I don't buy your definition for greed, but even so this case doesn't fit. Copyright law provides for the difference between a one-time and perpetual license for content. Clearly, viewing content multiple times is more valuable than watching it once, and thus is appropriate for price differentiation. The fact that the company could take less profit by marking both as the same low price is irrelevant.

> Clearly, viewing content multiple times is more valuable than watching it once, and thus is appropriate for price differentiation.

"Appropriate" is questionable. I already explained above. What is "appropriate" for raising a price? Or what can be called fair pricing? I don't consider raising the price fair, when the merchant has no difference in expenses. It's called a rip off. It is not irrelevant and as I said, it usually happens only when competition is weak. Healthy market tends to prevent such bad behavior, because completion could successfully use the lower price for both cases and all customers would prefer them.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#154
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Improving and defending the open web is not just about fighting the good fight on DRM. The Mozilla mission also calls for us to fight for users right to make choices[0] as well. Mozilla could choose not to implement EME, and draw that line in the sand, but that means denying users the option of continuing to use Firefox to access content they choose to access . My preference (both as a long time Firefox user, and a M…

Sure, the user may want to access DRM-encumbered content, but we shouldn't promote such a thing. You're not denying the users anything by refusing to implement EME, the media companies are denying the users freedom by insisting on using malware to deliver content! Just because users want Netflix in Firefox doesn't mean that it's the right thing to provide.

| You're not denying the users anything by refusing to implement EME

Mozilla is if they claim to be an open source, standards based browser that promotes user choice.

If Mozilla doesn't adhere to standards, and users are denied content because of that, then Mozilla cherry picking standards is explicitly denying users their choice.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#155
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canceling your streaming service subscriptions won't be sufficient, even if everyone did it. You have to stop consuming Hollywood content. Stop going to movies. Stop watching TV shows. Stop listening to recorded music. Then you might actually make a difference. The streaming services are just stuck in the middle here -- Hollywood won't sell them, or anyone, content without DRM. DRM actually makes sense for a streamin…

As discussed below, DRM never makes sense since it's not effective anyway.

You live in a very sheltered bubble if you think DRM is not effective.

For most people, DRM is enough to stop them. It's only a select few people with a deep understanding of technology who can defeat even the most basic DRM.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#156
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm sure the people would be doing something else. I was just talking about the company, which would have no reason to exist.

They could exist trying to concentrate on DRM-free distribution. Others managed that: https://www.headweb.com/en/ Of course it wouldn't have the same scale. But we aren't talking about scale - you mentioned existence as if selling something DRM-free is not possible or not sustainable.

I don't think the Scandinavian and US markets are comparable, but fair enough, I doubted even something like headweb could exist.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#157
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As discussed below, DRM never makes sense since it's not effective anyway.

You live in a very sheltered bubble if you think DRM is not effective. For most people, DRM is enough to stop them. It's only a select few people with a deep understanding of technology who can defeat even the most basic DRM.

> For most people, DRM is enough to stop them. It's only a select few people with a deep understanding of technology who can defeat even the most basic DRM.

I don't think you get the point. Most pirates never try to beat any DRM. They pirate what other capable few provide to them DRM free. Yes, some initially break that DRM. But it takes one knowledgeable pirate to do it in order for the rest to get it DRM free ever since. So, going back to the point above - DRM is not effective for anything except degrading the product for legitimate users.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#158
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could exist trying to concentrate on DRM-free distribution. Others managed that: https://www.headweb.com/en/ Of course it wouldn't have the same scale. But we aren't talking about scale - you mentioned existence as if selling something DRM-free is not possible or not sustainable.

I don't think the Scandinavian and US markets are comparable, but fair enough, I doubted even something like headweb could exist.

I wish they could expand. But alas, so far nothing like that is coming.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#159
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As discussed below, DRM never makes sense since it's not effective anyway.

You live in a very sheltered bubble if you think DRM is not effective. For most people, DRM is enough to stop them. It's only a select few people with a deep understanding of technology who can defeat even the most basic DRM.

This is only the case if you try to get the content legitimately (i.e. pay for it). Consumers without scruples have an easy ride.

Re: Reconciling Mozilla’s Mission and the W3C EME

#160
post #152
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start pirating content. Punish them in their pockets. It's all their care about.

So long as you're still consuming it you're still propagating the resulting culture, and encouraging other people to pay for it. Not everyone is in a position where they can so easily choose to flaunt the law. It's best to support liberally licensed things and other alternatives; then your friends and family can share in them without taking the bigger step of choosing to ignore the law.

I think it's worse than that: DRM is serving a market of users ASKING to pay a lower price for renting movies instead of buying them. Many users are very happy to trade freedom of sharing with cost, and I personally don't think you can expect a business model based on an agreement of sharing restrictions to work without any layer of technical enforcement.

Even outside of movies, there are surprisingly few examples of successful artificial restriction policies without any kind of enforcement. Socially, people assume that they will be physically restricted from doing things that they are not supposed to be doing (from key locks to bank safes to packaging boxes with safety labels to bodyguards to keep out signs to whatever). I'm not sure it makes sense to go chicken/egg here: we can simply accept that people expect restriction policies to be enforced somehow, and they find totally reasonable that there is some kind of enforcement.

The whole business model of movies is based on restricted consumption; you pay more to get a better experience (e.g.: more quality) or less restrictions (e.g.: buy instead of rent). You can't expect this to continue to exist without a technical enforcement, and at the same time you can't expect Hollywood to come up with a radically different business model for a mature industry. You need disruption to arrive from somewhere else.

IMO, fighting against DRM for movies is ignoring the big picture. There are absolutely zero possibility that you will be able to experience Hollywood digital movies without DRM, because people accept and DEMAND to be restricted in order to access to discounts. The only alternative that makes sense is to boycott Hollywood and finance an innovator that can setup an alternative movie industry not based on restricted consumption (and good luck with coming up with a workable, scalable business model; that would easily make you billionaire and it's thus quite hard to achieve).

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