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Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

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Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#31

Post by lgieron »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #16
barbs wrote: post #7

I wanted to get into this game, but I seem to remember being turned off by the amount of luck in it. Maybe I should give it another go?

I have never liked purely deterministic, non-random games. I think part of it is that they encourage analysis paralysis--if I know that a single mathematically perfect move exists, I'm not happy unless I can find it; I'm more willing to settle for "good enough" and move on with the game if I know that even a perfect move can be derailed by the dice, and even a bad one might luck out. And part of it might be that non-…

In games with random element a single mathematically perfect move exists as well (it needs to be computed as an expected value over the randomness), which can make the games even more prone to analysis paralysis (ex. poker players pondering a single move for up to 15 minutes).

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#32

Post by chongli »

sspiff wrote: post #27
Jach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you shouldn't need to at lower difficulties or on easier campaigns, you can always quick save before a move or at the end of your turn and reload if you didn't like the result of your move or the enemy moves. Do it a lot in the early scenarios to build up hero unit reserves and see if you can make it through later scenarios without reloading. Mark the turn start save and try a strategy, if it fails go back to t…

This technique has a (derogatory) name in the world of strategy games, "save scumming". I think in a single player game, the only thing that matters is that the player has fun. It is more common practice in games like RPGs, but less looked down upon, since certain quest lines and story elements are mutually exclusive. Think of the typical choice of being a "good" or "evil" character, and how they sometimes lead to di…

Save scumming is so pernicious and ubiquitous that it's driving the growth of an entire genre in response: Roguelikes!

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#33

Post by chongli »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #23
barbs wrote: post #7

I wanted to get into this game, but I seem to remember being turned off by the amount of luck in it. Maybe I should give it another go?

I used to feel like this too. Then I understood I just had bad tactics. If you fight the right way (cover every units' back, use beefier units to guard weaker ones) you don't suffer from bad luck nearly so much because you don't hang on the edge and can stand few bad blows.

Unless you're playing against a human opponent who is very close in skill level to you (such as a friend).

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#34

Post by hjek »

Jach wrote: post #18
barbs wrote: post #7

I wanted to get into this game, but I seem to remember being turned off by the amount of luck in it. Maybe I should give it another go?

While you shouldn't need to at lower difficulties or on easier campaigns, you can always quick save before a move or at the end of your turn and reload if you didn't like the result of your move or the enemy moves. Do it a lot in the early scenarios to build up hero unit reserves and see if you can make it through later scenarios without reloading. Mark the turn start save and try a strategy, if it fails go back to t…

In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So that the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#35

Post by bane »

This is a great game and runs fantastic on older systems. I've turned more than one old and "useless" laptop into a Wesnoth/ScummVM/mp3 player box in the past and they work fantastic.

This is also about as close as you're going to get to a native Advance Wars game on PCs. If you've played any of the AW games (GBA and DS) you'll know how addictive they can be.

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#36

Post by Vaskivo »

listic wrote: post #8

I wish they finished Wtactics, the card game. http://wtactics.org/

I didn't know about Wtactics. Is it from the same devs?

While I see the value of Wesnoth, it's not my kind of game. Now a constructed card game, that I enjoy!

Browsing that website, I think the game rules should be easier to find.

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#38

Post by VLM »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #23
barbs wrote: post #7

I wanted to get into this game, but I seem to remember being turned off by the amount of luck in it. Maybe I should give it another go?

I used to feel like this too. Then I understood I just had bad tactics. If you fight the right way (cover every units' back, use beefier units to guard weaker ones) you don't suffer from bad luck nearly so much because you don't hang on the edge and can stand few bad blows.

"bad tactics"

If you remove the morality and ethical language, I have had some fun answering questions experimentally along the lines of "is it even theoretically possible even with save scumming to (insert unusual and adventurous idea/tactic here)" Yes I'm quite literate and I understand the scenario is trying to railroad me into following a certain very narrow track of gameplay, but I want to explore well outside that narrow track. Or rephrased, my idea of a fun "narrow track of tactics" doesn't map identically to a scenario designers "narrow track of tactics"

This is a fundamental moral / ethical difference between computer based (mmo)RPGs and paper/pencil RPGs, on the computer creativity is seen as inherently wrong, and on paper/pencil creativity is seen as correct. There's probably a startup idea or two buried in there. The world already has too many rules lawyer paper games, but a computer game that rewards creativity without turning into a themeless story free sandbox is a somewhat unsolved problem. There do exist some, especially historical, but to say its an underserved market would be an understatement.

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#39

Post by guard-of-terra »

chongli wrote: post #33
guard-of-terra wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to feel like this too. Then I understood I just had bad tactics. If you fight the right way (cover every units' back, use beefier units to guard weaker ones) you don't suffer from bad luck nearly so much because you don't hang on the edge and can stand few bad blows.

Unless you're playing against a human opponent who is very close in skill level to you (such as a friend).

Then luck it will be.

Re: Show HN: Wesnoth – Free, turn-based strategy game

#40

Post by guard-of-terra »

VLM wrote: post #38
guard-of-terra wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to feel like this too. Then I understood I just had bad tactics. If you fight the right way (cover every units' back, use beefier units to guard weaker ones) you don't suffer from bad luck nearly so much because you don't hang on the edge and can stand few bad blows.

"bad tactics" If you remove the morality and ethical language, I have had some fun answering questions experimentally along the lines of "is it even theoretically possible even with save scumming to (insert unusual and adventurous idea/tactic here)" Yes I'm quite literate and I understand the scenario is trying to railroad me into following a certain very narrow track of gameplay, but I want to explore well outside t…

I remember there was a patch or a setting to Wesnoth that removed all randomness from the game.

I.e. every attack chance is now 100% and every damage is now oldchance * olddamage. I guess it supported fractional HP.

You might try that if you want to get very creative with your tactics.

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