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Are you paid to look busy?

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Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#111

No, I'm not, and it's one of the things I enjoy about programming. Some weeks I work 30 hours, others I work 60. But if I did the things I committed to doing this week, then I go home. Why sit in the office and pretend to be working? It makes no sense.

Most managers would not accept this. Since most developers are paid salary (as opposed to hourly), many feel like if you were leaving early, you aren't working hard enough. I've seen it at every place I've ever worked. At one place, my manager directly told me I needed to stay until 6 or 7 every night or the boss will think that I'm slacking.

I'm in the same boat. Some weeks I simply do not have enough work to fill the 40 hours I should work according to my contract. I'm just sitting around, looking busy, and billing those hours to the project I'm assigned to. If I report fewer hours than that I'm in trouble, because my billable hours go down and that means I'm getting a smaller bonus at the end of the fiscal year..

Yeah, the system isn't really working.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#112
post #81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to be getting downvoted, but you've struck at the heart of the issue: If we want to do away with meaningless jobs, people will still need resources to survive. And that "one-in-ten-thousand" (or whatever) will need to be taxed very heavily so the wealth can be spread. We can't have all of our financial resources siloed into an increasingly small number of people's wallets. A great benefit to this system wi…

"And all of this runs anathema to the usual sort of libertarian financial-might-makes-right of the tech world, unfortunately."? Woah, hold on there. Did you really just imply that "financial-might-makes-right" is a Libertarian thing/concept? That is absolutely not true, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I'm honestly curious why you would even think that. If you do, then you've been drinking some seriously nasty…

Libertarianism is the belief that the only valid rights are 1) private property, and 2) no initiated direct physical violence. The only time either of these rules can be violated is: the second one may be violated to punish those who violated rule 1 or 2 (notice: rule 1 can never be violated).

a pretty direct, if over-simplified, outcome: someone with a lot of financial might (say, an apple orchard), can deny another person with less financial might (say, nothing) access to food, leading to their death. as the second person was looking to violate rule number 1, and the first person didn't violate rule number 2, Libertarianism is totally fine with this chain of events.

Libertarianism, phrased a different way, says "the only time you can hurt someone is when they take your stuff. if you hurt someone by having stuff while they have nothing, that's totally fine." In other words, financial might makes right.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#113

This reminds me of a study focusing on soccer games. It analyzed A) how often players shot goals toward the left, middle and right sides of the net; and B) how often goalies responded by jumping toward the left, middle and right sides. The stats revealed a surprising phenomenon. Though opposing players shot toward each area of the goal evenly — about 33% of the time — goalies jumped toward the left or the right 80-90…

As a counterpoint, I remember being taught in a Game Theory course that both the shooters and the goalies acted in accordance with the Nash Equilibrium which (IIRC) happens to be equal amounts to each option. You would think that if such a vulnerability actually existed, coaches and analysts would have figured it out and it would be exploited.

Thanks. I hope someone could look up a discussion on this soccer goalie example: I never really understood it.

Is the example above saying goalies would do the "more productive" thing of standing still more often if they didn't feel the pressure to look like they were doing something? If kickers evenly spread out their shots, you got a 1/3 chance no matter what you do. It wouldn't matter if the goalie went always left or always right or just stood there every time. And if goalies are being irrational, why aren't kickers exploiting it?

Though I agree that you shouldn't be penalized for standing still, that doesn't make jumping right or left "fake work".

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#114
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When reading stuff like this I wonder, how do the Windows folks manage to do the same? A browser disguised as Visual Studio? doubledesktop.exe? I'm so thankful for my *nix with all these little toys.

http://codereddit.com/ Reddit that looks like source code. For opening in Visual Studio's built-in browser. I am not a Windows dev.

You have changed my life, thank you.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#115

No, I'm not, and it's one of the things I enjoy about programming. Some weeks I work 30 hours, others I work 60. But if I did the things I committed to doing this week, then I go home. Why sit in the office and pretend to be working? It makes no sense.

Most managers would not accept this. Since most developers are paid salary (as opposed to hourly), many feel like if you were leaving early, you aren't working hard enough. I've seen it at every place I've ever worked. At one place, my manager directly told me I needed to stay until 6 or 7 every night or the boss will think that I'm slacking.

that is a perspective issue - my salary is annually negotiated , in compensation for an idea of what work will come up and how i will better myself and the company. It is not how many hours worked in a week. I don't get a "weekly" salary. having this different perspective in mind allows acceptance of the time shifting that comes along with knowledge work - inventing and creating are not on a linear scale.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#116

“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery becau…

We've had systems where not everybody had to work to eat & make a living. It was called monarchy, and you will notice it didn't go over well. The problem is one in ten thousand still leaves a very disgruntled & disenfranchised 30,000 people in America slaving away so everyone else can do as they wish. And until we can automate all the dirty work, the hard laborious work, these aren't 30,000 people working white colla…

"And until we can automate all the dirty work, the hard laborious work, these aren't 30,000 people working white collar desk jobs."

Wanna guess what will happen when we start automating those jobs? Hint: riots about 'the machines are stealing our jobs'

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#117

“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery becau…

Bucky talked a lot about a world where there was enough food to go around, people were educated, and many jobs were being automated. I assumed he was party inspired by the Green Revolution/Norman Borlaug. On top of this, Bucky lived through an education transformation, going from a society in the late 1800s which had a global illiteracy of 85% to a complete flip to 85% global literacy--in his lifetime. He talked about this a lot. He also saw that many jobs, even in his day, were being automated, i.e. that humans were no longer required to be "muscle-reflex" machines. A lot of these ideas inspired that quote.

In a world where our political, financial, and corporate infrastructure supports "doing what needs to be done", in terms of benefiting all of humanity, we can then apply the "earning a living" quote. But only when we have a system setup to support the last sentence in the quote.

If you are not one of the "one in ten thousand..." then you should be studying or preparing to develop your own breakthrough that benefited humanity and become a "one in ten thousand" in the process.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#118
5 years ago I worked as a consultant at a large enterprise software company. There were definitely large periods of time (months long) where I was averaging 3 hours a week of actual work. Insane, insane work hours. There would be a 5 person team (Analysts, QAs, developer) spending 5 weeks on a release that consisted in 45 min worth of text changes. I don't usually hear people on HN talk about not having work to do. I guess it's different at start ups. It's just fucking unbelievable to me though that I would get paid so much to do so little. And I feel like some kind jerk complaining about it.

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#119
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds great, but you still need money to survive. This would mean that the few that did work would essentially be supporting the rest of society. Why would I ever want to start a million dollar business if I knew the majority of my earnings would be taken from me by the government to support people that didn't need to do anything?? You don't have to get a crappy job and work for someone you hate for the rest of…

You appear to be getting downvoted, but you've struck at the heart of the issue: If we want to do away with meaningless jobs, people will still need resources to survive. And that "one-in-ten-thousand" (or whatever) will need to be taxed very heavily so the wealth can be spread. We can't have all of our financial resources siloed into an increasingly small number of people's wallets. A great benefit to this system wi…

> And that "one-in-ten-thousand" (or whatever) will need to be taxed very heavily so the wealth can be spread

I think this is always going to be problematic because once wealth gets concentrated it's going to be very hard to redistribute it, short of some revolution or coup. And I sense that this is going to be especially hard in democratic countries where there's a very close nexus between elected representatives and wealth holders; US, India being prime examples that I could think of.

An alternative is to have systems and institutions such that wealth concentration doesn't even happen in the first place. Also I believe wealth gets concentrated by systemic and institutionalized transfer of wealth from middle and poor class to a selected few rich and not because those who are wealthy are geniuses or are contributing proportionately to society.

I can think of a few examples of systemic, institutionalized wealth transfers that are happening right now.

1. Riding on others hard work: A labor working in inhuman conditions with peanuts for wage producing textiles which are sold with profit margin of a few thousand percentages.

2. Privatizing essential services: Poor/middle class persons having to pay out regular health premium and still live in fear of getting their claim rejected and end up paying through their nose for smallest of diseases, medicines.

3. Rent seeking: Natural resources (oil, spectrum etc.,), licenses, monopoly, forced software contracts, patents and such.

4. Crony Capitalism: Govt bail outs for failed private institutions that have caused massive financial crisis which in itself was a wealth transfer from poor to rich of a scale that was perhaps unheard of.

5. Crony Capitalism: Tax payer's money getting transferred to weapon's manufacturers and private military contractors who in turn are going to protect the interest of private oil corporations.

6. Riding on others hard work: Illegal or institutionalized collusion among private corporations to suppress the wage by not allowing free labor market.

7. Resource transfer: Government snatching massive tracts of farming land from the poor farmers and giving them away to private corporations for pittance.

9. Erect massive blockade to democratic institutions so that the common citizen, for whom they were meant for in the first place, will have no choice but to resort to middle men and shell out huge sums. Courts (lawyers, out of court settlements etc.,), parliaments (lobbyists) etc.,

If I look at the list of wealthiest people, rent seeking behavior and riding on cheap labor jumps out!

Sure, they probably deserve to be wealthier than above average, but does the wealth they have accumulated is proportional to their social contribution?

The intersection between those who have contributed to advancement of our civilization in whatever small way and the rich people is almost an empty set. That's a clear enough indicator that those who are very wealthy really don't deserve it and in fact snatched the wealth from others to start with!

Re: Are you paid to look busy?

#120

“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery becau…

I like the main point being made here and think it is partly valid because there really is a lot of waste. (but some of it is stuff consumers really create due to convenience purposes and impatience) But I think the idea that nobody needs jobs is downright wrong. Even the idea that it would be relatively few who need jobs is probably false. But maybe we are operating with like a 20-30% extra workforce than what's essentially needed.

I would like to see more investment into people and their skills. Also general planning for community...with people's individual,specific goals/ideas/dreams at the core.

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