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All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

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Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#91
Although it's not directly related to the tech side, I would love to have your feedback on alibaba.

It suddenly appeared in my search results last month when looking to buy something, with a lot of results - from alibaba itself and from aliexpress. As with any website I don't know of, I queried trustpilot for them.

It's not good at all[1][2]. Most reviews talk about scams. We may praise them for being a very tech heavy company and being about to make their IPO, but let's not forget the actual service value provided to customer.

Does anyone has insight on how those reviews may be misleading ?

* [1] http://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.alibaba.com

* [2] http://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.aliexpress.com

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the companies you listed, NONE have American born founders: Ebay (Iranian), Yahoo (Taiwan), Google (Russia, ok Page is born in Michigan). How many people who aren't born in China have been minted as billionaires at Chinese companies? Starbucks had plenty of problems with their Chinese partners; they worked hard to get to the point where they were actually allowed to run stores by themselves without a paras…

"NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were foreign born. Certainly you would think of Jerry Yang or Sergey Brin or Pierre Omidyar as American as any other. They are not foreigners just because they are foreign born.

This is how the US naturalization oath begins: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; ..."

It is true that you have to renounce your US citizenship to a Consul for the US to consider you no longer a subject of its (taxation power :-).

If a Chinese American travels to China using Chinese passport instead of a visa issued by the Chinese government he or she would not be able to obtain consular support if he/she runs into legal troubles. If he/she wants a visa from the Chinese government and consular support from the US embassy then he/she can't pretend to be a Chinese citizen any longer.

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#93
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu were all founded by Chinese and are based in China. The Chinese government welcomes foreign investment as long as ownership remains Chinese. KFC, McDonalds and Starbucks have succeeded because the majority of their managers, owners and workers are Chinese.

Alibaba was at one time 40% owned by Yahoo and close to 40% by Softbank, with significant stakes by investors like Silver Lake and Digital Sky. Tencent was 46% owned by South African Naspers, which still owns 34%. Baidu was funded by Silicon Valley venture capital. Google actually contributed $5 million to Baidu's third round and offered to buy the whole for $1.6B (and allegedly could have cinched the deal if they ha…

Funny you brought the 40% up. The Chinese government doesn't like foreign investors controlling financial companies in China. So Alibaba spun off its Alipay service into a separate company, without the approval of investors.

Yahoo wasn't pleased and sole about 15% of their shares.

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#94
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu were all founded by Chinese and are based in China. The Chinese government welcomes foreign investment as long as ownership remains Chinese. KFC, McDonalds and Starbucks have succeeded because the majority of their managers, owners and workers are Chinese.

Alibaba was at one time 40% owned by Yahoo and close to 40% by Softbank, with significant stakes by investors like Silver Lake and Digital Sky. Tencent was 46% owned by South African Naspers, which still owns 34%. Baidu was funded by Silicon Valley venture capital. Google actually contributed $5 million to Baidu's third round and offered to buy the whole for $1.6B (and allegedly could have cinched the deal if they ha…

"Funny you brought the 40% up. The Chinese government doesn't like foreign investors controlling financial companies in China."

In the US the threshold to become a "bank holding company" is 10% equity ownership. Becoming a BHC subjects you to the regulation by the FRB or state banking boards.

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#95

Pity its not Alibaba that is for sale in the "IPO" then, just a Cayman Islands company which holds a "profit participation" right which may or may not be legal in China. The article also points out that much of Alibaba is not actually owned by the company but by Jack Ma personally, so no participation in that.

This is an interesting fact that none of the articles i've seen so far have mentioned. Do you know how Yahoo fits into this? is their stake in the holding company as well, or in Alibaba proper?

I think they own it more directly, as the holding company is new. But they have had issues in the past.

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest reason is that China is not a country ruled by fair application of law. To win in China, you have to be willing to bend the law as much as possible without getting slapped (or at least, just slapped on the wrists). American companies can't execute like that: if fuzzy application of Chinese law doesn't get them (either by getting slapped, or having to follow laws that their competitors don't have to), the…

You are right. There are several main reasons why US-based firms fail in China market. 1. Government regulation: China government and other centralized power governments such as Vietnam, and Russia always try to keep their eyes on Internet activities, audit informations on the Internet. These government's activities may put automated systems (algorithms) of US-based firms in difficult. It seem to violate the notion o…

The Communist Party of China will only allow large corporations to function insofar as they retain some control over their operations, even if that control is only occasionally utilized. The degree of guanxi necessary to succeed at the less formal regulations present in China is at a minimum that a Party member gets some degree of control - and their loyalty is not to the company, but to the party, like a political officer on a submarine.

That means, effectively, that every relationship with a Chinese arm of one's company is a partnership with the Chinese government, if push comes to shove, rather than a subsidiary relationship.

This is the clearest explanation I've found of the enormous difference between the somewhat alien structure of Chinese ventures and the familiar Western model:

"By “the Party,” I’m of course referring to the Communist Party of China (CPC, also known as the Chinese Communist Party or CCP), the political organization founded in 1921 which, under Mao Zedong, fought a revolutionary war that ultimately brought it to power in 1949. It is a Leninist party, which means that unlike most Western political parties, it is a tightly-organized, hierarchical organization similar to a military unit or religious order. In the United States, there is no such thing as being a “member” of the Republican or Democratic Party — the closest thing would be to register to vote in either party’s primary. Republican or Democratic “committees,” on either the local or national level, are really just funding and support co-ops for helping candidates; they are in no position to issue orders to voters, activists, candidates, or elected officials. Joining the Communist Party of China, in contrast, is a formal and highly selective process that takes several years to complete. Once initiated, a member must obey Party directives and take on whatever task (including official positions) the Party assigns. If they misbehave, or even break a law, they will be detained, investigated, and punished by the Party, not the police — only after being expelled from the Party will they be turned over to the country’s regular legal system for prosecution.

The best way to think of the Party is to imagine the human resources department of a huge multinational corporation — except that in this case, this HR department is so powerful it gets to appoint everyone from the Board and the CEO to the lowliest janitor, so it effectively calls the shots. In China, every government ministry, every military unit, every state-owned company – and in many cases private companies as well – has a Party committee that decides all major personnel issues and, in doing so, essentially acts as the power behind the throne. Now sometimes the boss of the more visible entity is also head of the Party unit, which means the formal boss actually does call the shots. But if the two roles are split — as they are, for instance, in every province — you can bet that the Party chief is the one holding most of the real power.

The Party’s 78 million members (a little over 5% of China’s total population) are essentially a pool of pre-screened candidates who can be slotted into whatever official role the Party leadership decides — with the understanding, of course, that their primary loyalty remains to the Party that put them there. Directives from Party superiors — on who to assign or promote, or what policies to pursue– are ultimately far more important than instructions received from more formal channels like ministries, courts, or corporate boards."

http://chovanec.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/primer-on-chinas-le...

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#97
post #36
post #27

Although Alibaba is a huge company that does a ton of different things, I feel like this article went out of the way to avoid mentioning that companies like Google and Amazon (as well as Microsoft and Apple to a lesser extent) come close to checking all of these boxes. The other thing to point out is that Alibaba owns stakes in many of these companies and doesn't really own them outright. As others have already point…

Also Amazon and Google does a lot of stuff Alibaba does not do. * Self-service warehousing and distribution (Fulfillment by Amazon) * Package Delivery (Google Shopping Express, AmazonFresh) TV setup box (Amazon FireTV) * Search Engine (Google Search) Web Browser (Chrome) * Laptop/Desktop OS (Chrome OS) * Wearable Tech (Android Wear, Google Glass) etc. Also for many offerings like Aliyun and Aliyun OS pale in comparis…

Alibaba owns UCWeb is top 1 mobile browser since Windows Mobile ages.

Re: All the Western companies you’d have to combine to get something like Alibaba

#99
post #89
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were foreign born. Certainly you would think of Jerry Yang or Sergey Brin or Pierre Omidyar as American as any other. They are not foreigners just because they are foreign born.

"Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship." That is incorrect. Becoming a US citizen means renouncing your native citizenship as well. The only exception is if you were born into dual citizenships in which case you don't need naturalization at all.

The United States allows dual citizenship if you naturalize to a non-hostile foreign country without renouncing your US citizenship, but only because of a supreme court decision over US citizens who became Israel citizens. I am dual US/Australian via this route.
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