Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects • Hacker News Board

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#11

Post by movix » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:39 PM UTC

More than 900 people have been followed and filmed by Greater Manchester Police as part of a pilot project to prevent crime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8164697.stm

They can arrest you before you've even THOUGHT of committing a crime.

Not as a 'civil libitarian' but as an ordinary human I find this disturbing.

I don't know how you solve the problem of these mostly 'low level' criminal activities, but maybe they should park those trucks on the doorstep of some major international banks. Isn't this where the real harm to society is being done?

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#12

Post by Kadin » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:44 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #2

Seems that it is probably less to shame and more to threaten the suspects with surveillance of their criminal activities. I don't have any particular issue with it, but I suspect civil libertarians might. (In particular, "We pretend to watch them, to scare them into thinking we really are watching them, and thus to control them without exerting effort" is called the "panopticon" in academic literature, and is widely…

I consider myself a "civil libertarian," in the sense of caring about the preservation of liberty -- but I don't have a problem with this.

Well-placed targeted enforcement and surveillance are good things; without them, as people start to feel more and more threatened by crime, you start to get more demands for everpresent surveillance and UK-style CCTV. Using targeted surveillance on a case-by-case basis seems like an excellent way to head that off.

Also, I think it's good that having cameras pointed at your house still carries a strongly negative connotation. When people stop caring that they're being watched all the time, that's when you know you're heading down the road to a surveillance society.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#13

Post by dkarl » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:45 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #4

jpwagner wrote: post #3

So they shame people before they've proven they've committed a crime? They are putting the neighborhood under surveillance? I appreciate the ingenuity, but this is big brother-ish.

Yeah, if there are reports of criminal activities the cops should stay away and not look at what's going on, dam those meddling cops stopping criminals from doing their deals. Presumably you'd like patroling officers to be fitted with blindfolds to avoid them surveilling people from the street?

The problem is that this is designed specifically for when police don't want to do their job. They believe the people are "bad" and engaged in undesirable activity, but they can't be bothered to investigate and gather evidence of criminal activity. Instead, they want to make their lives miserable, on the principle that the threat of surveillance bothers the guilty, but not the innocent. And any sweet old lady can tag someone as a "bad element" who needs to be driven out of town.

If that's what we want, then we don't need police in the first place. We just need close-knit communities where good old boys are eager to enforce the nervous prejudices of the community using violence and intimidation.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a quiet, boring person who detests littering. I wouldn't be a target for this kind of operation. But we already know the hazards of this kind of justice. We've been there, done that, and moved on.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#14

Post by mrshoe » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:49 PM UTC

My college roommate's dad worked with microfinance companies in India. Every month, a representative from the company would go from town to town collecting monthly payments from the borrowers.

Sometimes the borrower would claim that they could not pay. In that case, the collector was instructed to just sit down and wait for them to pay. The shame of having the collector sitting in their village was overwhelming, and payments were usually made within the hour.

A lot of people try to get away with bad stuff because nobody they know is watching. I'm glad that there are no Anonymous Cowards on HN. It's always interesting to see how differently people behave when their peers' focus is turned on them.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#15

Post by calcnerd256 » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:52 PM UTC

jsteele wrote: post #9

patio11 wrote: post #2

Seems that it is probably less to shame and more to threaten the suspects with surveillance of their criminal activities. I don't have any particular issue with it, but I suspect civil libertarians might. (In particular, "We pretend to watch them, to scare them into thinking we really are watching them, and thus to control them without exerting effort" is called the "panopticon" in academic literature, and is widely…

Who are "civil libertarians"? People who value their civil liberties? People who are willing to do something to protect them? Whatever they are, you say you're not one. Interesting.

I think the label suggests that they self-identify about it in an obnoxious way. Kind of like how "card-carrying member of the ACLU" is sometimes used as an insult, even though everyone wants their own civil liberties defended.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#16

Post by bonsaitree » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:53 PM UTC

It's a nice niche solution for non-violent "nuisance" issues, but it will only scale to the point where the cost of temporary criminal activity shutdown and/or location movement is less than the risk/cost of dirt-cheap anti-materiel sabotage actions against the truck. A very, very low bar to hurtle.

Examples: Thermite + Firecracker Ignition against an axle, Short-range "spray painting" of camera portals w/ heat-set epoxy, Long-range shooting of camera portals with suppressed sub-sonic ammo or high-powered air rifles.

Additionally, the very minute a reasonably well-educated/funded home-owner brings a case against the "nuisance" claim to court, any further use of the truck would be limited to the local municipality's statutory limits on mere infractions (non-crimes)--typically no more than 24 hours.

To enable the truck to loiter any longer, the local prosecutor would have to file formal criminal charges and declare the particular residence a "crime zone".

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#17

Post by grandalf » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:57 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #12

patio11 wrote: post #2

Seems that it is probably less to shame and more to threaten the suspects with surveillance of their criminal activities. I don't have any particular issue with it, but I suspect civil libertarians might. (In particular, "We pretend to watch them, to scare them into thinking we really are watching them, and thus to control them without exerting effort" is called the "panopticon" in academic literature, and is widely…

I consider myself a "civil libertarian," in the sense of caring about the preservation of liberty -- but I don't have a problem with this. Well-placed targeted enforcement and surveillance are good things; without them, as people start to feel more and more threatened by crime, you start to get more demands for everpresent surveillance and UK-style CCTV. Using targeted surveillance on a case-by-case basis seems like…

I do have a bit of a problem with it.

Suppose if rather than a truck it were a giant scarecrow with cameras, placed facing the house of people suspected of having committed a crime.

Is the average person allowed to own a vehicle with cameras and park it outside the home of someone they don't like?

It seems like blatant harassment.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#18

Post by bonsaitree » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 4:59 PM UTC

jpwagner wrote: post #3

So they shame people before they've proven they've committed a crime? They are putting the neighborhood under surveillance? I appreciate the ingenuity, but this is big brother-ish.

Technically speaking, the residence is being accused of an infraction, not a crime. It's akin to a parking ticket.

As I've noted in my earlier comment, the "jig" is up with this procedure the minute the infraction is fought in court and a single precedent is established in case law.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#19

Post by patio11 » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

jsteele wrote: post #9

patio11 wrote: post #2

Seems that it is probably less to shame and more to threaten the suspects with surveillance of their criminal activities. I don't have any particular issue with it, but I suspect civil libertarians might. (In particular, "We pretend to watch them, to scare them into thinking we really are watching them, and thus to control them without exerting effort" is called the "panopticon" in academic literature, and is widely…

Who are "civil libertarians"? People who value their civil liberties? People who are willing to do something to protect them? Whatever they are, you say you're not one. Interesting.

Who are "civil libertarians"? People who value their civil liberties?

People who value civil liberties are civil libertarians in the same sense that people who value women are feminists.

Whatever they are, you say you're not one.

Correct. I am also not a feminist.

Re: Cops Use Old Brink's Truck to Shame Suspects

#20

Post by bharris » Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 5:10 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #13

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if there are reports of criminal activities the cops should stay away and not look at what's going on, dam those meddling cops stopping criminals from doing their deals. Presumably you'd like patroling officers to be fitted with blindfolds to avoid them surveilling people from the street?

The problem is that this is designed specifically for when police don't want to do their job. They believe the people are "bad" and engaged in undesirable activity, but they can't be bothered to investigate and gather evidence of criminal activity. Instead, they want to make their lives miserable, on the principle that the threat of surveillance bothers the guilty, but not the innocent. And any sweet old lady can tag…

In the article, the police claimed to have tried all other methods of 'traditional' policing before resorting to the truck:

"In the summer of 2006, police were brainstorming ways to rattle a suspected drug dealer. They had exhausted traditional strategies, including undercover operations, and were left empty-handed and frustrated. They decided to park a retired police car in front of the suspect's house."