Programming Is a Dead End Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#121

Post by skkbits » Sat, May 03, 2014, 8:37 PM UTC

pcurve wrote: post #61

WalterBright wrote: post #48

> Maybe it's dumb but you have a choice between doing what you love and making a big payout by doing something else. This is not strictly true. Programmers are relatively well paid. You can decide to live significantly below your means, and invest the rest. For example, my neighbor once referred to his Oldsmobile as his "quarter million dollar Olds". I asked him what he meant, and he said that was the current value o…

I agree. Sr. Software engineers at our company can make $120k + bonus. It's not that different than their IT managers. And IT manager is a really crappy job if you love to code. Also, it is very difficult to go from becoming IT manager to IT director or higher, especially in bigger companies. VP of IT in large companies is filthy rich territory as per OP, but for everyone VP of IT, there are several hundred developer…

>Also, it is very difficult to go from becoming IT manager to IT director or higher, especially in bigger companies.

This is so much true.

>Opportunity to become VP, or even director is not all that common.

Completely agree. You hit nail on the head.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#122

Post by skkbits » Sat, May 03, 2014, 8:45 PM UTC

The company I work is around for 40+ years now. There are some folks as "Programmer Analyst", "Software Engineer", "Sr. Engineer" for 20+ years now. I have asked many of them why you didn't move up the ladder and report to someone junior ( or H1B in his early 30's). Most of the time answer I got it, they love what they do. They love having opportunity to program , provide logical + thoughtful solutions. Of course, when new management comes in and there are times to make decision to layoff, these people become victim due to range of salary they have reached, age, skillset. This is very unfortunate but true. I would not completely write off what author is saying but I believe it depends on individual prospective. Of course, money is important factor but if you are getting a job 8 am to 5pm + raising your family/kids comfortably + spending time with family and yet have good balance when you retire then being programmer is quite good deal actually.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#123

Post by BatFastard » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

I am blessed with a dead end job where I can love what I do almost everyday, see progress everyday, and work with smart people.

I have flirted with 10 of millions of dollars in wealth, but I don't seem to have the timing to make it stick.

But at the end of my life, if my kids can say he loved what he did, he loved us, and he loved life. I will be a lucky man indeed.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#124

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #113

serge2k wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could we forget, every time someone mentions a salary in the bay area people leap to mention how expensive it is there.

Watch out, you might lose all your karma for interrupting the Bay Area self flagellation. Honestly, it is expensive, but not enough to offset the insane salaries, at least for devs. If you're going to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for everyone else who lives here.

Honestly, it is expensive, but not enough to offset the insane salaries, at least for devs. If you're going to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for everyone else who lives here.

Programmer salaries are not "insane". A half-decent programmer is worth $500,000 to the business and costs about $100,000. A good one is worth over $3 million, and only costs about $150,000.

Programmers are actually incredibly fucking cheap right now, if you know what to do with the talent.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#125

Post by the_watcher » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

_random_ wrote: post #109

the_watcher wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High finance (banking, PE, hedge funds) are basically the only career I know of where you begin at a relatively high salary, and have potentially unlimited career growth (in terms of salary and earning power), where at the highest end, you aren't doing substantially different work than you did at the beginning (this is simplistic, obviously. You work at a higher level, and begin to employ people to do the work you di…

To be a doctor you need to study for like 10 years as well.

I'm pretty much just addressing career progression after you enter the profession, not barriers to entry (since the author seems to be addressing those who have cleared whatever entry barrier there is).

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#126

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:16 PM UTC

nikhizzle wrote: post #85

This is plain wrong. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have parallel tracks for programmers and managers. You can progress all the way up to Senior VP equivalent as an engineer with no management duties. These roles include compensation equivalent to traditional CEO level roles. Eg. http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2014/02/28/meet-jeff-rot...

This is plain wrong. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have parallel tracks for programmers and managers. You can progress all the way up to Senior VP equivalent as an engineer with no management duties. These roles include compensation equivalent to traditional CEO level roles.

It is a lot harder to make "Director-equivalent programmer" in those companies than to make Director. In terms of skill, hard work, and intelligence, the competition is a thousand times tougher.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#127

Post by beachstartup » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:25 PM UTC

chrisdevereux wrote: post #4

noir_lord wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also own my company, there is a limit to your salary in one direction, Zero.

I also own my company, zero is not a limit.

yeah, it's more of a starting point. it can go really quickly in either direction.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#128

Post by beachstartup » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:29 PM UTC

palebluedot wrote: post #69

maerF0x0 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders. Edit: I guess I should add, of course legal matters depend on location. AFAIK much of the developed world has legal structures that allow risk to be limited to the "company" and not risk the shareholders' personal assets (ie Your personal a…

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders. I am an owner / co-owner of 3 (US-based) LLCs, and I can tell you from experience that banks will require a personal guarantee, joint and several, of all principal owners, for any non-collateralized loan or line of credit. The same is gener…

great post. i'll add that it's not just term debt or capital leases, but other contracts too - even your first commercial real estate lease can require a large security deposit and personal guarantee. and if you're not careful, this personal guarantee will continue carrying over even as you expand into larger and larger offices...

and of course let's not forget operational credit cards (you are exposing yourself if you don't use an amex to pay for certain things) - that's the owners'/founders' credit on the line (at least at first).

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#129

Post by debt » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:32 PM UTC

Ha, this is a load of shit.

The magic in being a carpenter or a painter or a builder of any kind(including programming) is that you can create something from nothing. The jobs may suck but I still have the power to, whenever I want, execute and actualize my ideas.

I pity those with vision but no means to at least prototype that vision themselves. That's dead end to me.

Builders are magicians and they're certainly not inoxorably linked to their boring day jobs.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#130

Post by theorique » Sat, May 03, 2014, 9:40 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #26

declan wrote: post #9

It's a well-written essay (I say this as someone who has been a journalist/editor/manager and is now doing quite a bit of programming again for Recent.io). But really you could say the same thing about many other jobs: * Do you love to report the news? In most jobs as long as you continue to be a reporter you will likely have a limited set of promotions you can get... * Do you love woodworking? In most jobs as long a…

A cynical take on your observations sometimes occurs to me, and seems pertinent. The managers set the wages. Therefore, they will be well-paid, and their contributions will readily recognized. This is simplistic and does not explain everything, but I think it is a major ingredient.

There's also a flip side of this: a manager of a team of N is responsible for representing the collective results of a team of N.

If the team is successful and hits a home run, then the manager benefits a lot.

If the team crashes and burns, then the manager is at significant risk of job loss.

(Yes, office politics will come into play and managers will do their best in the latter case to diffuse blame, but the point is, they are the most visible elements of their respective teams.)